Fixed spear issue, when?

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Ulfhedinn

Sergeant
SPEAR COMBAT

lLFzB6G.jpg

I once modified the size of the pikes in the game to make them real size and I could also try to recreate the experience of the image above, however, it was a complete disaster to see the pikemen in practice. Only achieving a minimally significant result in loose formation. Polearm need to be overhauled! See this:


This is very non-immersive.

Even with the Realistic Battle Mod I was not able to solve the problem of the spearmen in the game. Is there anything being developed on this issue? I also think there should be something in AI that would force units to use the first weapon slot, making spearmen to use their spears in battle against infantry. One year since early access and spearmen still don't use spears by default. Fixing the collision problem and the damage of these weapons I believe that we will have a much more exciting battlefield in Bannerlord. I agree with the limited attack type for pikes and lancers, but spears should be able to make side attack and also be throwable.
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
agreed, spears/pikes are terrible right now when they should absolutely dominate the battlefield, it seems TW only wants them to be anti-horse weapons and even this the AI can't do properly in formation specially with all the collision issues.

RBM improves this alot but the AI is still retarded only wanting to use spears when cav gets near when it should be the main weapon of most troops and they should be terrifying to face in formation

The author explained that if he changes this behaviour cav will become retard and want to use spears/lances in close quarters too instead of switching to their side arms after the charges so it's mostly a vanilla problem again where we can't change this separately
 

bestmods168

Sergeant
Agreed. When will they add pike formations. I don't know your level of knowledge in modding, but it seems you only have grasped the basics of it. Best Wishes on your journey.

WE NEED FORMATION FIGHTING for commanders with tactic level over 2. Each level increases the cohesion, defense/weight, etc.



@2:10

Shieldwall use to fight back
 
I don't think Little Jimmy wants his arcade armies to be messed up by spear bracing.... Maybe we should ask the Bannerlord marketing team if this is too complex? Does it hurt the fast paced action?
 

vonbalt

Sergeant Knight
WBNWVCM&B
Agreed. When will they add pike formations. I don't know your level of knowledge in modding, but it seems you only have grasped the basics of it. Best Wishes on your journey.

WE NEED FORMATION FIGHTING for commanders with tactic level over 2. Each level increases the cohesion, defense/weight, etc.



@2:10

Shieldwall use to fight back
these are all so... beautiful.. that pike-push was incredible! gods i need this :shock:
 

Ulfhedinn

Sergeant
Agreed. When will they add pike formations. I don't know your level of knowledge in modding, but it seems you only have grasped the basics of it. Best Wishes on your journey.

WE NEED FORMATION FIGHTING for commanders with tactic level over 2. Each level increases the cohesion, defense/weight, etc.



@2:10

Shieldwall use to fight back
+1

With the proper development and balance of collisions this is exactly what we need on the battlefield!
 

Clsy

Squire
WBWF&S
the single biggest thing that make me absolutely hate this game
this thing is useless just like many other things, but it is not a design flaw by taleworlds

it is them taking the stupid 1% playerbase multiplayer feedback and make it completely trash because "IT IS TOO OVERPOWERED"
thing now have no damage, no range, no speed, no controll whatsoever

really when you look at spear you would realise TW don't care about this game but their E-SPORT fantasy
 
I don't think Little Jimmy wants his arcade armies to be messed up by spear bracing.... Maybe we should ask the Bannerlord marketing team if this is too complex? Does it hurt the fast paced action?
He don't want em messed up by "imperial recruit" either but oh well it's gonna happen.

the single biggest thing that make me absolutely hate this game
this thing is useless just like many other things, but it is not a design flaw by taleworlds

it is them taking the stupid 1% playerbase multiplayer feedback and make it completely trash because "IT IS TOO OVERPOWERED"
thing now have no damage, no range, no speed, no controll whatsoever

really when you look at spear you would realise TW don't care about this game but their E-SPORT fantasy
Yeah, in single player we want good Cav and the means to counter them and good infantry and good EVERYTHING!
MP wants thier little sword fight fantasy bad word typing fest... DO IT SEPERATE!
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Spears are broken in Native and the guys from RBM have improved their effectiveness, that's a fact; however, it's far from what it should be.

Almost two years ago, in this thread I commented my impressions about the passive damage of this kind of weapons. Some time later when we got access to the beta, bestmods168 proved through its tweaks that passive damage could be part of the Native experience.


And here I want to separate SP from MP.

The passive damage of spears/pikes in my opinion formed after all this time dealing with the game, is that it should only belong to SP and in very controlled conditions of exclusive use/tactics such as static defensive formations or relegated to certain weapons. In MP this is currently unfeasible due to the fact that it would be a form of abuse of difficult balance, only spear bracing has a place as a passive form of inflicting damage in this mode imho.
 
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bestmods168

Sergeant
the single biggest thing that make me absolutely hate this game
this thing is useless just like many other things, but it is not a design flaw by taleworlds

it is them taking the stupid 1% playerbase multiplayer feedback and make it completely trash because "IT IS TOO OVERPOWERED"
thing now have no damage, no range, no speed, no controll whatsoever

really when you look at spear you would realise TW don't care about this game but their E-SPORT fantasy

I would have to disagree on the design flaw part. IMO, its a design flaw along with ai path finding, ai visibility, cloth physics, ai decision, etc. I can see that TW is getting one step closer to achieving a good battle mechanic. But they fall short time and time again because they keep listening to the stupid 1% playerbase that is privileged to grease the dev's ears. If they actually listened to the people who cared about the game, they'd have a good battle mechanic by now. A good start would be to re-tweak the ai decision/calculation when facing an enemy with a longer/shorter weapon. Add more formation options including polearm brace and phalanx. And TW needs to leave their pride and ego at the door. The community is here to help. There is no shame in receiving help. The biggest shame is needing help and refusing to admit that one have problems.
 

yangot

Regular
Afaik there's no significant update related to combat system (SP) since release, what currently we have is a same thing what we got since release. So claiming that devs only listen to 1% of playerbase is just a baseless accusations because they did not actually made any changes to the combat system (exception to spear brace for MP, I think they only implement it to balance MP against cavs), so they no really take any suggestions from playerbase.

The only reason I think of why they are not working on any combat related matters is because its not their priority. Most of updates over the year are about optimization, crash fixes, ai pathfinding, quest, faction/democracy balancing, etc. Most recent is castle battle and terrain system. Again more on content and stability, no combat related updates.

I dont see them making any combat system update in near future or until they are done with their priorities.
 

bestmods168

Sergeant
Afaik there's no significant update related to combat system (SP) since release, what currently we have is a same thing what we got since release. So claiming that devs only listen to 1% of playerbase is just a baseless accusations because they did not actually made any changes to the combat system (exception to spear brace for MP, I think they only implement it to balance MP against cavs), so they no really take any suggestions from playerbase.

The only reason I think of why they are not working on any combat related matters is because its not their priority. Most of updates over the year are about optimization, crash fixes, ai pathfinding, quest, faction/democracy balancing, etc. Most recent is castle battle and terrain system. Again more on content and stability, no combat related updates.

I dont see them making any combat system update in near future or until they are done with their priorities.

Based on your paragraphs, it seems you haven't been playing and following along since release. The devs made and experimented with combat changes on a weekly basis. And they DO listen to only their selected 1% playerbase. Once in a while they will take other people's advice into consideration. Were you invited to test the spear brace for mp? Were you invited to other privileged testings? If you've played since the beginning, you would know that the following existed:

wk1: cav beats spears
wk2: spears beat cav
wk3: cav beats spears
wk4: spears beat cav

TW gets pulled left and right like parents fighting over their children or like a love triangle.
This is all due to the stupid 1% that has greased the dev's ears.

Ai combat changes:
-Ai does a full charge
-Ai decides the game numbers and take an offensive or defensive position
-Ai calculates the length of the enemy's weapon and either moves in closer or further depending on the length
-Ai slowly "marches" forward in formation until getting close to the enemy. Then does a full charge. If ai is losing, they will retreat back 10 to 20 paces and regroup.
-Ai can shoot range over ally
-Ai can't shoot range over ally
-Ai cav blindly charges in. Goes a short distance and come charging again
-Ai cav blindly charges in. Goes a far distance and come back.
-Ai cav goes back to a medium distance
-Ai horse archer switches to melee weapons when engaging and switches back accordingly to the situation
-Ai infantry switches to polearm when facing cav. Switches back when facing infantry.
-Shields block on back with no damage
-shields don't block on back
-shields block on back with some damage
-two shields possible
-only one shield
-two shields possible. Thank goodness. Please do not revert. Allow the player to decide.
-shieldwall fights back agressively
-shieldwall doesn't fight back
-shieldwall fights back some

These are only some of the many things.

If you followed along, you would've known that so many changes were the result of the 1%. You can tell because most of the good recommendations and suggestions don't get implemented. The ones that do get implemented are the whiners who say, "Cav is too strong." "Spears are too strong against cavs." You see these comments and then the changes take place next week.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
As we are discussing this topic, I would like to comment you about something no less important but that has nothing to do with weapon damage, capsules colliders and such... I would like to comment you about the position of the weapon in the agent hand (weapon_offset).

One-handed spears/lances when used with or withaout a shield for attacking, have an adequate performance in terms of the use/balance of the weapon itself, i.e. the hand grips the wood within the centre area of weapon balance. That is fine in my eyes.

However, when two-handed pikes/spears are used, imho the grip position should be further back (towards the non-bladed end... I mean). If anyone has ever picked up/played with a pool stick, they know that the balance between thrust and control/accuracy is achieved by holding the end of the stick with one hand and sliding it inside the dominant hand guiding the shot.

Well... take a look at this and share your thoughts with us:


I am not saying it has to be like this. Dramatisation
yvK6m.jpg
 

Ulfhedinn

Sergeant
As we are discussing this topic, I would like to comment you about something no less important but that has nothing to do with weapon damage, capsules colliders and such... I would like to comment you about the position of the weapon in the agent hand (weapon_offset).

One-handed spears/lances when used with or withaout a shield for attacking, have an adequate performance in terms of the use/balance of the weapon itself, i.e. the hand grips the wood within the centre area of weapon balance. That is fine in my eyes.

However, when two-handed pikes/spears are used, imho the grip position should be further back (towards the non-bladed end... I mean). If anyone has ever picked up/played with a pool stick, they know that the balance between thrust and control/accuracy is achieved by holding the end of the stick with one hand and sliding it inside the dominant hand guiding the shot.

Well... take a look at this and share your thoughts with us:

I am not saying it has to be like this. Dramatisation
yvK6m.jpg
An excellent and immersive detail! Where can this be downloaded? How to edit this?
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
An excellent and immersive detail! Where can this be downloaded? How to edit this?
Nah... it's not a mod, I just modified a few simple weapon postioning parameters to show the concept in the video and debate what I'm proposing through it. The parameters in this case are the ones belonging to the combat_parameters xml. These are each of the weapon_offset line for thrust polearm actions.

As I mentioned, this is just a "dramatization" on a conceptual level. If Taleworlds were to take this feeback as valid and decide to modify this weapons positions, they would require to modify them by length groups, i.e..... 2h long pikes z=1.0/0.95 position, 2h short spears z=0.4/06... etc so that there would be no inconsistencies and a more professional result would be obtained. If they introduced at the time a modifier for polearm handles where the grip was wider, I don't see why not one adapted to two-handed spears/pikes with a more rearward grip would could not be introduced.
 

Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Well... take a look at this and share your thoughts with us:
That looks really good and I agree with you. The way spears are held always bothered me since Warband era. So much wasted length down there. It would really be disabling if it's done in real life, as the lower part of the spear would slap your body if you try to switch stance.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
That looks really good and I agree with you. The way spears are held always bothered me since Warband era. So much wasted length down there. It would really be disabling if it's done in real life, as the lower part of the spear would slap your body if you try to switch stance.
Exactly, with the middle area grip you lose quite a lot of weapon range and with the 2h ones you certainly want to be able to reach the maximum range without compromising your integrity. There' s no the need of showing you guys a video of how a group of bots has a longer weapon range proficiency in the modified version than in the Native... you can get an idea 😌 .
 
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