In Progress Fix the war logic.

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Version number
1.5.10
Branch
Beta
Modded/unmodded
No, I didn't use any mods.

Doofus

Sergeant

--Did not do the Neretzes quest and it has timed out, so that is not a factor

I am with the Vlandians. The screenshot shows the closest they are to our territory (I checked in Aserai territory, Sturgian, and other areas). Epicrotia has 346 defenders, which isn't a lot, but also isn't a small amount considering we were just at war (now resolved) and it had been besieged twice. All defenders are currently healthy & in fighting condition. I realize the game doesn't want us at peace and we've been at peace for about 3 days now (for the first time in about a year), but I did just get my wife pregnant, so that shouldn't be a driving factor either. Can anyone explain under what logic The Khuzaits, who aren't close to us and have never warred us would decide to declare war? If you can't, then please fix it.

Here's the diplomacy screen also... http://prntscr.com/13xokga
 
I might have thought that the Khuzaits declared war because they were itching for a war and had truces with everyone, but the next day the Southern Empire declared war on them, so thats not it.
 
Imo the AI is just itching to be at war first of all.
They also imo tend to focus on wanting to have 2-3 factions at war with the one the player is in regardless of you being king or not.

There is no "logic" in terms of haveing sharedborders to declare - then "defeated factions" woudlnt be able to declare war after peace, since they didnt share it with anybody.

So yah this is a "fix-situation" or make better conditions for when war can be declared.
 
I will inform the devs about the issue to see if there is anything wrong with it. Meanwhile, you can have a look at our dev blogs to see what drives the AI lords to do what they do.
 
Thought I'd give a bit of an update on this. It is now Summer 12, 1097 in my game. Unfortunately I didn't copy the date in my screenshot, but I'm guessing its a couple years later. We are still at war with the Khuzaits. As far as I know neither side has ever besieged anything of the other. I don't think the true Khuzaits have even raided us, although I think a few mercenaries have occasionally stopped by, mostly to be taken prisoner. The diplomacy screen shows they have one successful raid, we have none. We have one of them prisoner, they have none. We've mostly been busy with other wars. We are still just as far away from them. I check the diplomacy screen from time to time to see if we can end it, but they always want tribute, usually between 900-1100 to end it. My empire doesn't want to end it and I don't blame them. Its a nuisance to have a war declaration against us, but they declared war we didn't and I'll be damned if I support having to pay them to end it. Maybe it'll be our version of the 30-year war.
 
Different game. 1.6.0 version. Here's our current war status...http://prntscr.com/1q15owj A few problems with this...

1) Battania. http://prntscr.com/1q14ptp They declared war against us a long time ago, I think probably at least 2 to 3 years ago. We have never attacked them. They have never attacked us. I am Aserai, working my way up the right side. Here's the closest any of my settlements are or have been to them... http://prntscr.com/1q16f13 Note that Argoron, Lochana, and Tyal are fairly recent additions. I don't think we even held Amprela when they declared on us. Under what logic are they are declaring war on us?

2) Vlandia. http://prntscr.com/1q177tq They declared war on us this game day. We've never fought them in the past. Again, we are working our way up the right side. Here's the closest they are to us... http://prntscr.com/1q1897f The Western Empire has held Tubilis Castle for quite some time and we haven't held any of the other territories in that area for a long time, if at all. Under what logic are they are declaring war on us? It seems more likely that they would declare on the Western Empire, who recently declared on us so they could get some of the territory near them.

3) Khuzait. http://prntscr.com/1q19l7p We pretty much wiped them out a while back. I spent a fair amount of influence to make peace with them after that, but of course Makeb & Baltakhand keep rebelling because I have no option to give them to myself (& assign a Khuzait culture companion). So while I was busy with real wars Khuzait took one of these from the rebels and we had to declare war to get it back. After taking it back, they eventually took another one from the rebels, etc. I want to get them out of here and eventually have them settle in the West where I won't have to deal with them for a while, but I refuse to keep spending influence just to have them keep taking land back from the rebels. My brain-dead lords, of course don't want to make peace with them even though there's nothing to gain from warring them (they have no territory).

The wars with Sturgia and the Western Empire at least make sense, although Sturgia has lost a castle & Tyal and it seems like they'd be eager to end the war with us rather than demanding money to keep us from destroying them.
 
Crashed out of game while typing the above (happens a lot). Restarted game, most recent save was prior to Vlandian war declaration (maybe 5 minutes prior). Followed same path, did same things (basically heading toward Western Empire). Vlandians didn't declare war this time.
 
Different game. 1.6.0 version. Here's our current war status...http://prntscr.com/1q15owj A few problems with this...

1) Battania. http://prntscr.com/1q14ptp They declared war against us a long time ago, I think probably at least 2 to 3 years ago. We have never attacked them. They have never attacked us. I am Aserai, working my way up the right side. Here's the closest any of my settlements are or have been to them... http://prntscr.com/1q16f13 Note that Argoron, Lochana, and Tyal are fairly recent additions. I don't think we even held Amprela when they declared on us. Under what logic are they are declaring war on us?

2) Vlandia. http://prntscr.com/1q177tq They declared war on us this game day. We've never fought them in the past. Again, we are working our way up the right side. Here's the closest they are to us... http://prntscr.com/1q1897f The Western Empire has held Tubilis Castle for quite some time and we haven't held any of the other territories in that area for a long time, if at all. Under what logic are they are declaring war on us? It seems more likely that they would declare on the Western Empire, who recently declared on us so they could get some of the territory near them.

3) Khuzait. http://prntscr.com/1q19l7p We pretty much wiped them out a while back. I spent a fair amount of influence to make peace with them after that, but of course Makeb & Baltakhand keep rebelling because I have no option to give them to myself (& assign a Khuzait culture companion). So while I was busy with real wars Khuzait took one of these from the rebels and we had to declare war to get it back. After taking it back, they eventually took another one from the rebels, etc. I want to get them out of here and eventually have them settle in the West where I won't have to deal with them for a while, but I refuse to keep spending influence just to have them keep taking land back from the rebels. My brain-dead lords, of course don't want to make peace with them even though there's nothing to gain from warring them (they have no territory).

The wars with Sturgia and the Western Empire at least make sense, although Sturgia has lost a castle & Tyal and it seems like they'd be eager to end the war with us rather than demanding money to keep us from destroying them.
From my experience its when your faction hits about 16k power level that you will have endless and "illogical" per se declarations of war.

I think its just the AI saying, your faction is too strong, and we are programmed to stop warring between ourselves and focus on destabilazing/takeing back lands from you.

I had somewhat similar issues with Asari declaring war on my faction, even if we didnt touch land directly in any spots.
Read they wanted to take Onica (which is a Soutern Empire town) but Southern Empire owned Husn Fulq + the castles next to it, and Danustica.

In this though, I think its the AI also looking for weak spots(which it was, as it was poorly defended by the owner in terms of garrison etc.)

The problem imo is more that the lack of intrest of peace when a faction is winning(and this kind of adds to the steamrolling typically more than it should by the faction the player joins cause of player).

Had the put in "peace time duration" + overall more desire for peace(although its much much better now in 1.61 mind you), it would make legacy games have a point.
Now basically if you want, you can conquer all the land if you want in 1 lifetime, so there is nothing for the kids to do.
 
Spoke to soon, I guess. Vlandians just declared war on us, I think its about a season after they did the first time, when I crashed. Nothing much has changed. It still makes no sense.
 
Spoke to soon, I guess. Vlandians just declared war on us, I think its about a season after they did the first time, when I crashed. Nothing much has changed. It still makes no sense.
I still think cause the AI is programmed to have less war among themselves and more upon the faction the player joins if they are "too strong".

I've noticed in this play that I dont have clansmembers forming parties, and thus we're more or less on par with them, and there is much less war, with small times of peace and what not.

I also have alot less troops in my fiefs aswell, so not to contribute to more "power".

So basically we're figthing 1 v 1 and not 4 v 1 with 0 intrest for peace.
At times we've had 2 v 1 before there was peace(after the ai defeated a few of our armies)(Read I was "dont care" or get involved in the war that goes on away from my fief's when the other enemy is on my doorstep, so I safeguard the fiefs on that flank.

Imo they need to adress the issue of "power" and tweak it abit down, as regardless the faction that the player joins will or should always become stronger than any other out there.
And when you get to a certain point imo its roughly about 16k power typicall, sometimes 12k maybe, there will be endless wars.
While you may get peace with 1 faction, you are typically still locked in war with 1 or 2 others, and there is no peacetime once that powerlvl is hit, which just tanks the fun(there needs to be peace even if the faction is "op").

Add in the still abit "too loyal vassals" that in some cases now havent had land for close to 10 years and still havent defected, it needs tweaking more.(Too rare do they join the faction the player is part of, while it do happend, its overall very few that I've noticed, and I've not been out trying to recruit them either).

My guess is that you are a "in your face on the battlelines player" like me, who "care" too much about the progress and dont want to loose it over what seems to be stupid reason, or if we are starting to loose ground cause well being at war with too many isnt a good idea at all, and there is still 0% intrest in peace - drives you nuts.
I just decided to "let it go" this play, and also check the theory if haveing all parties of my clan contributes to the endless wars(and it seems to do).

But again take the jump up to 1.61 its alot better imo in terms of desire for peace than the previous ones, much higher intrest in it.

The latest info they did today, lifted my hopes alot in overall whats in store to come down the line =)
 
I agree with most of what you are saying. I understand the Devs want to balance it, but at some point (imho) it becomes a case where the balance is such that all you can do is hang on to what you've got. There's no chance to keep expanding. Since I assume the objective of the game is to take over the known world and bring peace to the lands making it so you can not expand your territory is also making it impossible to win the game. No one is going to want to play a game you can't win.

I'll also note that I'm not sure how you are supposed to bring peace to the land if you can't get rid of any of the enemy factions (short of being a homicidal maniac and executing all the enemy lords).
 
I agree with most of what you are saying. I understand the Devs want to balance it, but at some point (imho) it becomes a case where the balance is such that all you can do is hang on to what you've got. There's no chance to keep expanding. Since I assume the objective of the game is to take over the known world and bring peace to the lands making it so you can not expand your territory is also making it impossible to win the game. No one is going to want to play a game you can't win.

I'll also note that I'm not sure how you are supposed to bring peace to the land if you can't get rid of any of the enemy factions (short of being a homicidal maniac and executing all the enemy lords).

I really wish the devs would chip in abit on this topic, cause I'm pretty sure we arent the only 2 who things this mechanics is "flawed" in its current state.

I've tried different approaches to see, but pretty much the overall lack of desire for peace is the issue.
Basically the only times we get peace is when "its too late" for that other faction to recover, cause as soon as we have peace, then another will pounce on them, which dooms them to a slow death typically.

On the other hand we never get peace if we are loosing either, unless a 2nd declare war on us, thus the chain of wars(endless wars).
They need to add some war-weariness and highr desire for peace, cause lets be blunt its supposed to be a sandbox, but if you can only do 1 thing if you are part of a faction then its a warsimulator.

As for the "homicidal maniac" well there is 2 ways to avoid this.
1. kill them on the battlefield, this may take alot of tries tbh, but sometimes you can be lucky
2. bribe them to join your faction(this is imo abit too hard atm for landless clans and or they are too loyal for too long(seriously they have been very poor for decades and have 0 land, but still stick with the faction..)
Ideally before you try this, do have 25 in relations of higher, so that first speech check can crit so you get 2 of 4 checks passed.
Not to mention alot of money, even for small landless clans it can take several 100k denars.
(The issue with this of course is that they defect later on..)

Depending on which build you are playing atm in 1.62 beta you can now make peace with minor clans(like those who have left a faction, and are independent(same for rebel factions, that survive, but loose their lands later on, and then declare war on all)
 
I really wish the devs would chip in abit on this topic, cause I'm pretty sure we arent the only 2 who things this mechanics is "flawed" in its current state.

I've tried different approaches to see, but pretty much the overall lack of desire for peace is the issue.
Basically the only times we get peace is when "its too late" for that other faction to recover, cause as soon as we have peace, then another will pounce on them, which dooms them to a slow death typically.

On the other hand we never get peace if we are loosing either, unless a 2nd declare war on us, thus the chain of wars(endless wars).
They need to add some war-weariness and highr desire for peace, cause lets be blunt its supposed to be a sandbox, but if you can only do 1 thing if you are part of a faction then its a warsimulator.

As for the "homicidal maniac" well there is 2 ways to avoid this.
1. kill them on the battlefield, this may take alot of tries tbh, but sometimes you can be lucky
2. bribe them to join your faction(this is imo abit too hard atm for landless clans and or they are too loyal for too long(seriously they have been very poor for decades and have 0 land, but still stick with the faction..)
Ideally before you try this, do have 25 in relations of higher, so that first speech check can crit so you get 2 of 4 checks passed.
Not to mention alot of money, even for small landless clans it can take several 100k denars.
(The issue with this of course is that they defect later on..)

Depending on which build you are playing atm in 1.62 beta you can now make peace with minor clans(like those who have left a faction, and are independent(same for rebel factions, that survive, but loose their lands later on, and then declare war on all)

Intresting, so I've had a much more enjoyable game this one I started today.

The core difference being that I have 1 clan member leading a party.
He have atm limited his wages to about 600 denar(he wasnt ideal set up from start, so he didnt have much steward skill, so he couldnt really hit that mark "normally" unless I gave him high tier troops.(he's gotten it now so he's able to form ok sized party).

However the key change in my play is that in wartime if we are "looseing too much" I will go max partysize.
But during wartime and peace, I typically have much less than that, I can atm command 164 troops but typically just go around with 100.

Overall the ai seems much more keen on peace, and progress is slowed down quite abit, so at this rate there is a point to legacy.
We've only taken 1 town + 1 castle in total from 1 faction and the same from another.
We've lost 1 castle, and its not likely to get back, but its also good we've lost it as then its less likely that this 3rd faction is going to attack.
(I'm Sturgia as always, We lost caelus castle or what its called, near Battania to them, and well since then Battania and Vlandia have been at it for decades on and off abit).
Epicroeta + Melacolva is the 2 things we've taken from NE.
Makeb and Usek from Khuzait.
Normally by this time, we'd have all the castle and towns up to Makeb.
Prolly a few Battanian citys, and NE up to Rhesos Castle typically + Epinosa castle and maybe Amprela.

So by dialing down the size of my own party, and companions and thus not haveing to fight for cash or smith etc too much, I typically is in the + denars pr day from my 4/5 workshops + income from Epicroeta(which I control).

Still bit early, but overall it looks like this dialed down the agression another notch, but I know I know, we get 1-2 more towns, and we'll be hitting that sweetspot where its more or less endless wars again or until we loose enough.

Then again all theese observations could be somewhat false positives if they tweaked something in the ai in the last hotfix they applied the other day.
This is the first one since then, and I wanted to test my theory, that if player party is "too strong" it kind of boost the power of the faction too much, and thus warmonger!

--

Edited, well I've tested it more, and it actually seems to behave as "we've want" it more peace with even long durations of peace.
No more endless wars/locked in chain-wars.
While some factions imo still needs abit of tweaking - Empire factions seem to hire merc companies "too much" so to some degree they prolong battle bit longer, but not crazy like it was.

Howver Khuzait which is generally much more poor, dont hire enough, where they should have.
I never thougth I'd say it, but they may need to be buffed abit finannacily to counter the other factions abit, like nothing much, but a minor subtle tweak(I'm sure if the player is in the kingdome its not needed at all, but judgeing from the wars we have with them vs the other factions, they are way weaker and submit much easier, never hire merc companies or maybe 1, not like the others 5+..)
 
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