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Fix Pikes, Lances, Spears

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Hax.

Recruit
M&BWBWF&S
Thats also one of the reasons cav seems so overwhelming. There is simply no one to stop them.

This is happening because cav requires absolutely no skill whatsoever, yet you easily do monsterous k/ds of 7. x or even higher. It is bonkers and I'm highly disappointed that no one of the devs came to a conclusion that their concept is trash after all their "testing", I'm not trying to sound rude or bad mouthing them here, but obvious mistakes were made and it pretty much ruins the majority of game modes (for more than 5 months now).
 

Chaoslian

Veteran
You are right, cav is actually too strong. But with my post, i wanted to show another problem.

I saw a lot of post, that spears should be buffed against cav only. But it's not done with that alone.
As long, als the spear is not a full reliable main weapon (and it's not currently), there will be to few people to stop them.
You need people, that are already running around with a spear. Just switching to it as soon as you see cav doesnt work most of the time.
If you let people decide between "i can be usefull against Infantry", and "i can stop a horse", they will mostly decide to pick the first one.
Also if you kill the horse, you still have to kill the rider. If you are now in a heavy disadvantage against that rider, it's pretty disencouraging.
This job simply has to be made attractive.
Spears shouldnt be just horse stoppers.
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
As long, as the spear is not a full reliable main weapon
...
Spears shouldnt be just horse stoppers.
I disagree with this part.

The same way swords aren't horse stoppers - but can hurt them (well, not QUITE at the moment, but in theory), spears aren't a main weapon against other infantry - but can still hurt them. Spears by their nature aren't that viable as main weapons, due to them having only 2 attack directions and thus, relatively easy to counter. However, they are still an excellent support weapon in Xv1 situations and groupfights.

Arguably, in the hands of a skilled player, they can even be considered to be too strong, due to them being capable of dealing damage at the very start of their animation and just generally spammable if used well. Granted, in their current state they can be quite unpredictable and do damage when you don't expect them to, but bounce when you do. With practice though, spear+shield becomes an excellent combo for groupfights + anti cav (also, at the moment, not QUITE, but eh). Which, imo, is as it should be.
 

Biyonik

Sergeant
I disagree with this part.

The same way swords aren't horse stoppers - but can hurt them (well, not QUITE at the moment, but in theory), spears aren't a main weapon against other infantry - but can still hurt them. Spears by their nature aren't that viable as main weapons, due to them having only 2 attack directions and thus, relatively easy to counter. However, they are still an excellent support weapon in Xv1 situations and groupfights.

Arguably, in the hands of a skilled player, they can even be considered to be too strong, due to them being capable of dealing damage at the very start of their animation and just generally spammable if used well. Granted, in their current state they can be quite unpredictable and do damage when you don't expect them to, but bounce when you do. With practice though, spear+shield becomes an excellent combo for groupfights + anti cav (also, at the moment, not QUITE, but eh). Which, imo, is as it should be.
I agree. For spears to be viable they dont need to be excellent against infantry because from a balance perspective thats not how it should work. Swords should be good against infantry and spears should be good against cavalry. Also one of the reasons nobody pick spears are because of the overabundence of the throwing weapons.
 

Chaoslian

Veteran
I disagree with this part.

The same way swords aren't horse stoppers - but can hurt them (well, not QUITE at the moment, but in theory), spears aren't a main weapon against other infantry - but can still hurt them. Spears by their nature aren't that viable as main weapons, due to them having only 2 attack directions and thus, relatively easy to counter. However, they are still an excellent support weapon in Xv1 situations and groupfights.

Arguably, in the hands of a skilled player, they can even be considered to be too strong, due to them being capable of dealing damage at the very start of their animation and just generally spammable if used well. Granted, in their current state they can be quite unpredictable and do damage when you don't expect them to, but bounce when you do. With practice though, spear+shield becomes an excellent combo for groupfights + anti cav (also, at the moment, not QUITE, but eh). Which, imo, is as it should be.

Why? In real life, spears ARE viable main weapon. In this Game no other weapon does have that many restrictions.
- 2 attack directions, so easy to block
- If the enemy is to close, you bounce. this also varies if you use the top attack or the bottom attack
- sometimes you bounce where you shouldn't and vice versa
- The release is very slow.
- stabs are way harder to land, than swings.
- Because of these points: If packet loss comes in, good luck. Now every hit is gambling.
- Because of this points, feinting is useless because you give your enemy more time to close the gap again. You will bounce and eat the hit
- Shield can block both spear attack directions with a left or right block

and even if you manage all of that, you are doing less damage, than a One handed weapon. Compare that directly to a 2H Weapon. All this, just for 30cm reach, that you lose on the other side? This isn't event remotly balanced.

Also keep in mind, that we talk about grabbing a spear with 2H. Shield and spear is halfway decent. The only thing that has to change there is the minimum required range, and this weird release.

If spears keep like that, they will not be used. How many 2H spear users did you see in your last games? And how many of them could do anything, as soon as you enganged? Hell i have a faible for spears, and even i don't want to play them anymore. Why should anyone, whos not into spears, choose it, if he has to deal with all of this?
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Also keep in mind, that we talk about grabbing a spear with 2H. Shield and spear is halfway decent.

Right. I wasn't, I was talking about shield+spear. For people that like to use them in 2H, spears should be given side and up attacks, think war spear from Warband. I guess all I can really say is, well, not all playstyles are going to be viable in PvP video games and that's that.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Spear and board is bang on how it should be, it’s very useful in group fights for just keeping the pressure on people by chipping them with 20 dmg safely, and if your pressured enough you can be stopped.

2H is exactly the same but you just need more distance and that isn’t always easy in group fights and more often than not will lead to me hitting teammates in the back
 

WOLFGEIST

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I wanted to up this thread, in hope, that it's considered in the next patch.
Spear users are currently rare, because with all this problems, they are not fun to use.
There are some spear and shield users but i see less and less.
2H spear is nearly nonexistent.

Thats also one of the reasons cav seems so overwhelming. There is simply no one to stop them.


It's already been confirmed that the spear/cav relationship will see some changes in the upcoming patch.

Just waiting on the single player devs to finish up before it can launch.
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
Spear and board is bang on how it should be, it’s very useful in group fights for just keeping the pressure on people by chipping them with 20 dmg safely, and if your pressured enough you can be stopped.

2H is exactly the same but you just need more distance and that isn’t always easy in group fights and more often than not will lead to me hitting teammates in the back

Spear and Shield is working exactly how it should against infantry.

The issue is that spear and shield is inconsistent against cavalry and that not every infantry class actually has access to the combination.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Spear and Shield is working exactly how it should against infantry.

The issue is that spear and shield is inconsistent against cavalry and that not every infantry class actually has access to the combination.

Yeah I know, I was mostly addressing the dude who was complaining that spears are dreadful overall.
 

Mushbeast

Knight at Arms
The spear is beast at demolishing unsuspecting noobs, but the second someone has a bit of experience blocking them or bring a shield, then they're almost useless. Like a lot of people are saying, they are really useful for team fights which is probably what makes it so hard to balance. I definitely agree that they need some sort of buff or rework regardless, but shield and spear is pretty strong especially because the shield bash usually hits the enemy into perfect stabbing range.
 

Biyonik

Sergeant
The spear is beast at demolishing unsuspecting noobs, but the second someone has a bit of experience blocking them or bring a shield, then they're almost useless. Like a lot of people are saying, they are really useful for team fights which is probably what makes it so hard to balance. I definitely agree that they need some sort of buff or rework regardless, but shield and spear is pretty strong especially because the shield bash usually hits the enemy into perfect stabbing range.
Anybody who can block can also block a shieldbash though. Its even possible to hit a shiedbashing dude if you react fast enough
 

WOLFGEIST

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
So a while back, before the game left closed beta, there were complaints that spears were OP because they released too early (and then they were nerfed). Looking back, it almost feels like this could be a decent mechanic considering there's only 2 block directions. Part of me wonders if the early complaints about spears were unwarranted and were just a matter of not having enough experience with the game.

I think any change, particularly nerfs should be done in very minute increments. It's better to make a very small change and go from there rather than making drastic changes.
 

Mushbeast

Knight at Arms
Anybody who can block can also block a shieldbash though. Its even possible to hit a shiedbashing dude if you react fast enough
As far as I've seen, it's impossible to block a shield bash unless you also have a shield. You can absolutely bully 2handers with a shield and spear, but you'll generally have to land 3 or 4 hits (which you must both aim correctly, and do some sort of miracle feints to even get past an up/down block.) whereas one mistake and you're dusted.

I think the fact of the matter is that 2handed spears are utterly useless and feel like it doesn't even do any more damage. Spears are just all round harder to land hits with, and if you're in a close quarter fight, the only hits you'll be able to land deal around 20 damage.

After practicing with spears since the game came out, there's definitely a couple techniques and tricks that can make your spear game pretty elite, but all in all it's still just ****.
 
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