Finland 1200AD

[Sotuu]

Right...I was suggested to make whole new topic for this matter so thats what im doing.

Lets start from the very beginning:
First proved population in Finland is as far as ~8600BD
~100AD Finns are mentioned in roman writings
~500AD romans write abt different Finnish tribes (basic Finns and Lapland Finns which in my source were named skrerefenn/skridefinn)
end of 500AD germanic influence moves to Finland
~800AD some writings abt Finns doing campaigns against Norway
~900AD old mythology abt finnish kings
1000AD crusades starts and christianity starts to move in Finland ( from the sweden )
~1040AD novgorod attacks to Eastern-Finland (karelia) which begings to separate to its own culture ( orthodox)
halfway of 1000AD swedens king Emunds son Anund attacks to Finland but after Finns poison their wells Anund and his troops gets killed
1123AD novgorod attacks to Finland
1142AD Finns do counter-attack
~1154AD arabian geographer tells that Finlands king has claims on Norway
~1171AD document reveals that there's been swedish militarytroops in Finland to aid against enemies
~1186AD novgorod attacks against Finland
1189AD Swedens diocese list. Finland is not listed
~1200 danish historian writes abt finnish kings
~1202 Denmark campaigns against Finland
~1220AD mythology of marriages and wars of swedish and finnish dynasties
1249AD Sweden conquers Finland ( but Finland stays pretty much like before now they just have to be part of sweden army against novgorod )

So what else I have to do to get Finland in the mod as faction?
Ill give u a map where I have marked towns/castles/villages which should be in the map in 1200AD after im done marking those places
Well Finland is between Sweden and Novgorod and at the time it wasnt part of either of them before 1249AD so obviously it was "independent"

1. Åbo as town 2.Häme as village 3. Viborg as village 4. Kainuu as village 5. Porvoo as village
there should also be this small island named Åland and village in it

I might have found the name of Finlands king but as I told its hard to find knowledge from those times. this knowledge is based on different sagas,mythologies and legends and they say that there was King Faravid who led campaign of over 300 Finns + allied norwegians against karelians ( and as I write before karelians started to turn orthodox which caused these attacks between catholics and karelians)
And what comes to Finlands wealth/trading as u can see from the map Finland is laked country so it had lots of lake ore that abled them to produce iron and goods.

 

[MihailoSRB]

Good luck in researching!
First, you must first proove that Finland country, or countries, or tribes were/was independent,
cause that is the main condition for them to appear.
That may be the common knowledge, but, as I said, I don't know.
Note that there are some countries in the mod who are semi-independent, or ''nominally'' independent, whatever is the right word, so that also counts, as far as I can tell.
Then:
- you need to supply maps which shows Finland.
- a settlement list, containing towns, castles and villages.
- an army compostition/troop tree, with equipment (you might want to check out other troops in the Mod before doing that).
- heraldry (flags)
- all the historical lords you can find
- some details like religion, with whom are they at war with, family relations, ladies, what settlement belongs to what lord...
- some pics are always welcome
- give info here concerning Finland in 1200, so do not mention that Finland was strong in 1400AD, or that they had some kind of army in 850AD, only give info that is relevant to 1200AD.
- you might want to see the research thread for Bosnia and Ragusa, not for historical info, but to see how it you may want to do your research.
- you may also want to keep the First Post constantly updated with new info, like I did with Bosnia and Ragusa.
- don't expect from me to do any research, I don't know Finnish, and all the info that I can find is on English, and is on internet, meaning that you can find it too, so don't be lazy.
- you may also want to say to some other Finnish people from this forum that you opened this thread, so that they could help.

And for the end, I don't know whether or not Korinov planned to include Finland, or when did he plan to add them, so that goes beyond my knowledge.

Again, good luck.

 

[Sotuu]

only seen less patriotic Finns at forums so im mostly doing this solo    map and troops are easy to give but things like lords etc family might be difficult as there isnt much of knowledge from that time. and with 1200AD is it like +/- couple years?
also what makes this job difficult is that evidences of Finlands "independent" and christianity before swedish crusades has been destroyed thanks to swedes 

 

[MihailoSRB]

but things like lords etc family might be difficult as there isnt much of knowledge from that time. and with 1200AD is it like +/- couple years?

I haven't really explained it well.
I meant that year 1200 is the top border for some things.
Like, for example:
- If some Finnish settlement is deffinitely known to be built in 1205, than you shouldn't put it.
But, if it was only mentioned for the first time in 1205, then you can easily put it, because there is a chance it existed before that, and therefore, in 1200.

- If you find that some lord died in 1198, then you shouldn't put him in.
- However, if some lord is only mentioned in 1198, and never more, you can put him, because we don't know his fate, but there might be a chance for him to be alive in 1200, so he is automaticaly desireable candidate for a lord.
Many Serbian and Bosnian lords that I found are only mentioned once or twice, before 1200, but I have put them in, because they could be alive.

- If Finland became a Kingdom in 1210 (this is only and example, I don't know what Finland was) then you shouldn't put it as Kingdom of Finland, but as something else (in 1200)

- If Finland conquered some terrytories or settlements in 1210, then you shouldn't, of course, give them to them.

I hope I was more helpful this time.

 

[Sotuu]

- all the historical lords you can find
- some details like religion, with whom are they at war with, family relations, ladies, what settlement belongs to what lord...

this part is impossible as Finland didnt have nobles at the time... they did have some kind of regional leadership with provinces or villages but im not sure there is any names left. Åbo ( finnish name Turku) has burnt couple times so most of the documentation burnt with it 

 

[Hidole555]

The independence of Finland during the year 1200 seems to be heavily implied due to the Second Swedish Crusade which took place sometime between 1239 and 1256.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Swedish_Crusade

I've got a Yahoo answers question set up so while the research is being done other people can be doing part of the work for us.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111029201220AAhEOm2

 

[Sotuu]

I didnt quite get ur post there?

but what I have to say for these swedish crusades after yesterdays research of over 3hrs is that mostly they are total bullcrap    there are evidences that Finland had catholic christianity long before swedish made their crusades and the conquer of Finland was not allowed by pope as Finland already was catholic and under the auspices of pope

Also I've made some progress and as I thought Finland had provincial leaders. Names will be hard but hope we can get them somehow

 

[quapitty]

I mean - all my sympathies for Finland - but the point is: Was Finland a nation at that time? Or was it property of Sweden and Novgorod? So it might be an idea to add some - eh I forgott what it is called here but - add some regional tribe/culture like Lombard or Dalmatian or Swabian? I mean in that way Finland would be perceived. But I think it is no use to research regional leaders when f.e, Sweden had the power. I'd find it more interesting to have  a tree of Sami people or whatever you may find out. And again no offense against Finland - but was there something in the year of 1200?
Cheers!

 

[Sotuu]

nope Finland wasnt part of either of them before 1249AD swedes conquered it. and for ur last question pretty much just forest,villages,hunters and bloody wars. swedish part of Finlands history is 99% propaganda crap that isnt even true  they just destroyed most of the evidences and replaced our true history with their lies 

 

[Grimnarsson]

There's simply no justification for Finland to be a faction in this mod that holds historicity to such high standard. At best you might make a case for a tribe like Hämäläiset to be a somewhat coherent faction, but Finland no. The concept of Finland as a nation only started to take shape late 18th century, prior to that we were just the Eastern part of Sweden.

And really, you try to pass the lack of evidence of Finnish polity prior 13th century as a conspiracy? Finland prior to Swedish conquest was 'prehistoric'. There are no Finnish records of that era because none of the tribes living in Finland had written form of language.

 

[Sotuu]

nah the lack of evidence is understandable coz Turku has burnt and lots of writings were destroyed coz of that. It just annoys me that in school they teach how swedes brought catholic faith to Finland though there already was catholic christianity in Finland and that is even proven from roman writings 

and yes finnish tribes would be historically more correct and I would be ok with even that. and other tribes than ur mentioned one would be Karelians, something like Western Sames and Southwestern Finland was known simply as Tribe of Finland ( or as Jem from roman writings)

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

nah the lack of evidence is understandable coz Turku has burnt and lots of writings were destroyed coz of that. It just annoys me that in school they teach how swedes brought catholic faith to Finland though there already was catholic christianity in Finland and that is even proven from roman writings 

and yes finnish tribes would be historically more correct and I would be ok with even that. and other tribes than ur mentioned one would be Karelians, something like Western Sames and Southwestern Finland was known simply as Tribe of Finland ( or as Jem from roman writings)

Heh, something I really missed: the Turkic conspiracy theories.

I can clearly see the connection. Can you, people?

***

On the matter of Finland... no, Finland as a conscious nation didn't really exist. But what might be important to know is: did there exist, in 1200 or maybe 5-10 years into the XIIIth Century, a leage or confederation of several Finn tribes? Like there was a confederation of Prussians and one of Lithuanians, was there a leage of Medieval-skiing Finns?

Oh, I think I'll press for Finland just for all the work that Korinov will have scripting ski int Europe1200 

 

[Sotuu]

well it would be easier to make them as united tribes under 1 king than make abt 4-6 separate tribes as they pretty much fought together against swedes,norrs and novgorod. but dont know how does it affect that there was only 1 town at that time and rest were only villages?


and yeh I like my conspiracy theories 

 

[Grimnarsson]

You're right about Catholicism coming to Finland via trade, and the coastal towns were very much Christian prior to Swedish and Danish crusades. I was taught in school that the Swedish crusade in the 13th century wasn't so much about spreading Christianity, but establishing Swedish dominance inland.

But the fact still is, there is no evidence of a confederation of Finnic tribes under one authority. You talk about the evidence being destroyed during the many fires of Turku, but what are those writings? Who wrote them and in what language? Do any surviving historical accounts refer to those writings?

Finnic tribes remained fairly independent for a relatively long time, the Vikings from Sweden bypassed Finland and apparently even got their asses handed to them a few times, but that can be attributed to Finland being extremely sparsely populated with with no notable centers of trade or power. And usually Finnic tribes fought in the conflicts between Sweden and Novgorod on both sides, and rarely, or perhaps never, did they fight as one against either.

 

[Sotuu]

too drunk to write anything long but read these sites if u are finnish/ know how to use translator ( and yes I know they are bit patriotic  ) http://www.suomalaisuudenliitto.fi/?page_id=27 Finns did campaign against both of the neighbour countries 

 

[Grimnarsson]

Too drunk!? Now you're starting to sound like a Finn  And yeah I'm a Finn Savosta Perkele, but when it comes to history, one doesn't get to make things up. If there is an empty page in history one can't fill it with anything except what is likely and corrobrated by archeology and other sources.

For Finland, history for a long time went in long pendulum swings: first the Finns were portrayed as having had a prestigious line of kings but that is generally understood to have been bull****, and it's the same for Sweden. Do you really think Erik the XIV really was the fourtheenth king named Erik in Sweden? Most likely they made that up just to appear more prestigious in the eyes of other European kingdoms. Then there was the period in Finland where mostly due to new found Christian zeal, Finns prior Christianization were portrayed as savages living in holes and caves, which of course isn't true either.

 

[MihailoSRB]

Oh, I think I'll press for Finland just for all the work that Korinov will have scripting ski int Europe1200 

Wait, you think of skis, when you think of Finland?
The first thing that pops on my mind is a lake, surrounded by forest, and then, from the mist, a rally car appears sliding through.
Ok, It's a bit stereotypical... 

Btw, Sotuu, maybe you should ask Korinov whether or not he will include a Finnish faction, or just a troop tree, because he hasn't posted anything here yet, so it's just for you to be sure, and not to research in vain.

 

[Sotuu]

I'll do the research anyway...if it wont be for 1200 mod I can always find some1 else who would be interested or make whole new mod for it

 

[NikeBG]

Wait, you think of skis, when you think of Finland?
The first thing that pops on my mind is a lake, surrounded by forest, and then, from the mist, a rally car appears sliding through.
Ok, It's a bit stereotypical... 

Huh? I don't really get the stereotype (Finland has some famous racing track or what?). When I think of Finland, I think of two things - the biggest part of my favourite bands (or in other words - Finnish metal) and ancient shamans skiing in the snowy woods.

 

[quapitty]

Huh? I don't really get the stereotype (Finland has some famous racing track or what?). When I think of Finland, I think of two things - the biggest part of my favourite bands (or in other words - Finnish metal) and ancient shamans skiing in the snowy woods.

.....and drinking and barely talking while doing so.