Fierdsvain a bit overpowered?

[graycloak]

Okay, first off this is not about strategic balance as that can and does shift wildly based on specific game events.

I had noticed in my prior campaign that the Fierdsvain seemed to pretty much wtfpwn in anything like even field battles; my new game is in early days but it seems true just the same. I just watched 408 fierdsvain (random assortment, 5 different middling lords involved and only day 27 or so) vs 396 Ravenstern guys (4 lords, their king and me...admittedly my 20 weren't that good, but the rest were some pretty nice troops especially the kings guards). I had saved before this fight, so I got to play it out a couple different ways...the fight was in flat, open terrain with a few small hills.

Actually playing out the tactical battle we got slaughtered every time...largely because the Fierdsvain would form shieldwall on top of a small rise and the Ravenstern guys would charge into it in a mad rush time after time. I reloaded and tried this again three times and it was the same every time. So I figured, time to use the auto-calc since my allied commander is apparently a moron....

The *best* auto-calc result after 3 tries had the Fierdsvain winning with ~200 troops left!

Now I grasp that different match ups will play out differently and that this may just be a fluke of the troop types involved...but it seems awfully odd to me.

(PS Apologies if you'd rather have this up in the general gameplay question thread...but I didn't really consider it a question...more of an observation and opinion)

 

[Thundertrod]

Sounds like a tactic problem the ravenstern army should have stood off ar bow range untill there qivers are empty.
In direct melee no mager faction can go toe to toe with Fiedsvain. Pop uses a difrent auto calc sistom. The main warband auto calc is a sright up Levels vs level with a random number.
I don't know how the PoP auto calc works. but smaller lord partys offten have higer level troops since thay can catch badit partys and gain XP, a kings army can not.

 

[MIHAI]

agreed, the vikings are overpowered,

one might join them as soon as possible because of the richness of bounty

 

[Treebeard]

Okay, first off this is not about strategic balance as that can and does shift wildly based on specific game events.
Actually playing out the tactical battle we got slaughtered every time...largely because the Fierdsvain would form shieldwall on top of a small rise and the Ravenstern guys would charge into it in a mad rush time after time.
The *best* auto-calc result after 3 tries had the Fierdsvain winning with ~200 troops left!
Now I grasp that different match ups will play out differently and that this may just be a fluke of the troop types involved...but it seems awfully odd to me.

The Fierdsvein found a nice hill and decided to stay there. The battle would have unfolded differently had the terrain been different and they had decided to assasult. You have an interesting tactical battle to fight since the Ravenstern are charging that hill position. Try outflanking the Fierdsvein with your little group and try to help the Ravensterns gain the upper hand.

Failing that, I can only recommend that you don't join that battle since joining the Ravenstern will put you in Fierdsvein captivity in that battle.

 

[graycloak]

The Fierdsvein found a nice hill and decided to stay there. The battle would have unfolded differently had the terrain been different and they had decided to assasult. You have an interesting tactical battle to fight since the Ravenstern are charging that hill position. Try outflanking the Fierdsvein with your little group and try to help the Ravensterns gain the upper hand.

Failing that, I can only recommend that you don't join that battle since joining the Ravenstern will put you in Fierdsvein captivity in that battle.

I moved on It's not a complaint, just an observation. I'm curious if the battle AI reacts the same way every time? (Since the Fierds went to the same hill all three times and the Ravens charged the same way) The movements of my force didn't seem to impact the fight either way. I'm also curious what goes into the auto-calc, since clearly it was factoring something that I didn't consider or weight properly.

 

[Treebeard]

I moved on It's not a complaint, just an observation. I'm curious if the battle AI reacts the same way every time? (Since the Fierds went to the same hill all three times and the Ravens charged the same way) The movements of my force didn't seem to impact the fight either way. I'm also curious what goes into the auto-calc, since clearly it was factoring something that I didn't consider or weight properly.

The VI is mainly designed to counter the player, and focuses on enemy positions and odds. There is a bit random baked in too but it wasn't enough to change the behavior in this battle. Since the Fierdsvein must have considered itself not at enough odds to charge and instead wisely positioned itself on a hill in defensive stance, the Ravensterns had no other option than to assault.

Your troops need to melee and disrupt from the flank, slightly before the ravenstern troops make melee contact. That might win you the battle

But it was wise to spare your troops and move on

 

[graycloak]

Your troops need to melee and disrupt from the flank, slightly before the ravenstern troops make melee contact. That might win you the battle

But it was wise to spare your troops and move on

Reasonable enough, and if it was a bit later on I might have managed it...Me and my handful of mounted troops just became javelin and axe cushions when I tried that...not enough cavalry to swing it and my foot fodder couldn't get there before the Raven lords and cav hit the buzzsaw.

 

[Elfangore]

Lol i think this thread is very interesting because since i begin my WB game, i find the Ravenstern overpowered xD The Ravenstern Ranger is really a machinegun ^^

But finally Pop seems to be very good balanced, no faction is overpowered, they have all their strength and their weakness.

Ravenstern is my favorite faction, and if i can give you a clue : get a bunch of rangers and hold them at the right place, protected by you infantery and cavalery, they will clear the battlefield a lot, after that, you just have to snatch them with you cavalery.

 

[abadgaem]

Ravenstorm Rangers wtfpwn my poor Fierdsvain.

Also I don't think they have the best infantry.  My boys get wrecked by D'shar Bladesmasters and Assassins.  They attack too fast for my slow axe-wielding hulks. 

 

[Faegrin]

I noticed a strange thing. Whatever the faction i JOIN, it mostly always suicide rushes mindlessly, as if there is no VI for them. Or rather VI gave brains only the enemy. I mean - sending forth enemy cav that get slaughtered, then send inf that is always late - cav is destroyed and enemies are ready to beat the inf, and some rather useless support fire from archers. It's strange. They showed intellect only on several occasions. Against organized enemies, i know that.
P.S. It would be very nice to be able control units through tactic minimap as in RTS game. The weird line that units make are so... irritating.

 

[noosers]

The beefed up  MV autocalc (me thinks->) is available at the forge. If you understand code, you can go and have a look there.

To sum it up:
Standard MnB and prolly WB too mainly compares it by a modification of the unit levels. By and largely it´s unit level squared.

PoP uses extensive code including equipment, hitpoints, horse, shield, damage dealt, factored into a nice equation resutling in a comparative value. Testing and balancing came up with pretty good results so that AI autocalced battles now mirror pretty much the outcome of a player led battle and Player autocalcs become much nicer and more deadly than they used too. You may have noticed that since MnBoP 3.0 where MV introduced it and avast! tons of casualities popping up on your side instead of a straight rush.

Battle calculation speed has been significantly sped up as well in that process to avoid the old week long huge battles to be calced out.

As for Fierdsvain - I don´t know how many times I´ve said it but simply check their reknown. They´re the absolute most feared lords all over Pendor. They have 10-20% more reknown than the other lords and as a result - hugher armies. They´re supposed to have the strongest infantry. They have it. And it´s nice to hear the VI applied it properly and the mass of infantry slaughtered you and your stupid fellow lords.

Another reason why I usually fight on my own or have lords joining only if they aren´t my faction or me is marshall.

What should be possibly done - since there´s VI beefing up tactical possiblities - is grant the right to command in every single party to overrule the AI allies even if the player isn´t their faction or marshall. Even if you take a random fun element out of the game with it I reckon it was fair.

 

[graycloak]

What should be possibly done - since there´s VI beefing up tactical possiblities - is grant the right to command in every single party to overrule the AI allies even if the player isn´t their faction or marshall. Even if you take a random fun element out of the game with it I reckon it was fair.

I'd agree with this; the battle seemed winnable if my allied troops would have done anything even vaguely intelligent. Heck even just arriving all at the same time would have made it a much more even slaughter.

Also, I agree this would not have been a problem in a much later game; It only came up here because I was so weak and relying on allied troops.

I understand the renown thing with the Fierdsvain, but does that factor into the Auto-calc? (other than indirectly by troop type/numbers?) I was surprised by the auto calc results here because the odds seemed if anything in favor of the Ravenstern based on troop types and numbers. (Fewer low tier troops while the Fierds had a fair number of liberated bandits and such)

(I'd try to list out the forces, but I've moved well past the battle and don't have a save to check any more)

 

[noosers]

MV tried and achieved to scale and estimate the combat value of all troops accordingly to their assumed strenght in a player-AI battle. The native autocalc is very crude and relies on level only to estimate the outcome. So a level 20 Ravenstern Skirmisher was as good as a level 20 Ravenstern Horseman with native. PoP estimates the Horseman superior to the archer. Or Huscarl vs Kiergard. Native would set them equal but PoP says Huscarl >>> Kiergard. Which - if you try it out in battle - is pretty accurate.
It´s one of MV´s smart masterpieces greatly enhancing and improving PoP because the AI vs AI fights end more realistically as do the Player vs Autocalc fights.

Try to autocalc a fight against Noldor in 2.5. Then go and try the same in 3.x and you´ll see the difference.
The reknown advantage of Fierdsvain impacts autocalc only indirectly due to larger quantity of troops. The average Fierdsvain Lord has about 160ish troops when you start a new game often bloating up to almost 300 if they sit around for long enough. No other faction has such vast armies and therefore the potential to steamroll the whole map that often or regularily.