Ferguson Riots

[Austupaio]

I agree with everything you said except...

there would be less (grounds for) drama and accusations of racism or reverse racism etc if the decision was made by professionals

...but of course as I hit post you edited in the (grounds for) and eliminated my point. I believe we'd still have this if the decision was made by a panel of judges rather than a jury.

 

[rebelknight]

I don't understand the concept of rioting...

Police kill a black kid, peoples then protest by ransacking the neighborhood, destroying shops and the livelihood of hardworking peoples.

How are you better than that cop now?

 

[Krik]

Like I said it's a bunch of pissed off people who don't know any better than to violently react. They've mostly been brought up in violence and poverty they feel wronged thanks to people like Al Sharpton who make everything about race.

 

[Matiss_Veinbergs]

US goverment:US goverment
angry mob of people: angry mob of socialists.

Notice the similiarities, people!

 

[RalliX]

US goverment:US goverment
angry mob of people: angry mob of socialists.

Notice the similiarities, people!

...What?

 

[Mage246]

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!

[me=Mage246]strokes his neckbeard meaningfully[/me]

 

[Orion]

It is not that novel an idea to have a panel of three or five professional judges. Or at least a combination of professional judges and lay persons.

What do you know about the appeals system?

The appeals system is utilized when one side (or both) feel that the law wasn't upheld in a lesser court's ruling. Appeals can result in hearings before supreme courts, which are comprised of a panel of judges.

On a somewhat related note, people are also quick to slam the grand jury for being 75% white. The grand jury is composed of residents from all across Missouri, which is 70% white. Its members were not appointed specifically for this case, as this wasn't a trial. The jury was appointed for a 4-month term which was supposed to end September 10th (but which was extended to January 7th). They had been hearing routine cases during this incident, and regularly met once a week. The grand jury hearing took place to determine if there was probably cause to charge the officer and, if so, to decide what he would be charged with. If charged, he would then face trial. Only nine of the ten jurors had to agree there was probable cause to charge the officer, as grand jury hearings are not required to be unanimous because they merely decide if there's reason to go to trial.

[Edit]

Fixed a very confusing typo.

 

[Splintert]

So far the only real surprise is that Ferguson shop owners aren't out guarding their property through use of force like they did back in August. Despite all the burning, rioting, stupidness, there's been very little person-on-person violence.

 

[Sir Saladin]

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!

[me=Mage246]strokes his neckbeard meaningfully[/me]

Everyone needs to stop waking up the sheeple. The sheeple are bad enough when they are sleeping, for Pete's sake.

 

[kurczak]

It is not that novel an idea to have a panel of three or five professional judges. Or at least a combination of professional judges and lay persons.

What do you know about the appeals system?

The appeals system is utilized when one side (or both) feel that the law wasn't upheld in a lesser court's ruling. Appeals can result in hearings before supreme courts, which are comprised of a panel of judges.

Yes, Appeals and Scotus are judges only, but as a rule of thumb appellate procedures don't allow for new evidence or revision of the facts, so if the jury that someone shot somebody (or didn't), there is very little to nothing they can do about it (without working the system in a not so legitimate way). But even if they did, there is imo still no reason to have juries in the first place. Best case scenario - they do what judges would do too.

 

[Duke Daniel Milutin]

隐藏

 

[Orion]

Yes, Appeals and Scotus are judges only, but as a rule of thumb appellate procedures don't allow for new evidence or revision of the facts, so if the jury that someone shot somebody (or didn't), there is very little to nothing they can do about it (without working the system in a not so legitimate way). But even if they did, there is imo still no reason to have juries in the first place. Best case scenario - they do what judges would do too.

Well for one thing, professional full-time judges are more expensive than temporary juries, and the amount of judges you would need would be drastically increased (assuming you want at least 3 for criminal trials so there can be room for dissent). As it stands, it's more cost-effective to pay 12 people a daily pittance and free lunch for the duration of a trial, and if they do **** it up then the appeals process allows for a do-over. If they don't **** it up, which is your best-case scenario, then it's better for being cheaper. The real argument should be about the efficiency of the appeals process and if/when specialized juries should be formed for certain types of cases (like more legally complicated white-collar crime).

 

[kurczak]

Well the appeals doesn't really work as a do-over. That's what I was say. Only juries can decide the facts of a case. Appellate courts only deal with legal aspects of the trial. They might at best decide that certain evidence was inadmissible and order a retrial, but if a jury decides that they just really don't like someone and want to see him in prison (or the other way around) and there are no procedural mistakes, then the appellate court cannot "overrule" it. They can change the legal qualification from voluntary manslaughter to murder etc but the fact that A caused the death of B can only be decided by the original jury.

Plus speaking about this particular case, there is really no actual appeal from a grand jury returning a no bill unless the DA gets some new evidence (I think, I don't have that detailed knowledge of the us criminal proceedings)

Money is really irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, many poorer jurisdiction do without juries. The federal budget is 3 trillion. The whole justice departments takes 20 billion. Getting extra judges would be a drop in the ocean.

 

[Mage246]

Jury bias is grounds for an appeal as a reversible error, if it can be demonstrated.

 

[Sir Saladin]

They would riot even if Jesus and his legion of undead followers rose from their graves just to say that criminal charges will not be filed against the policeman.

I think what might help a little is if the police weren't driving around on solo missions. Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto to get beat up for him.

 

[Swissky]

They would riot even if Jesus and his legion of undead followers rose from their graves just to say that criminal charges will not be filed against the policeman.

 

[Tibertus]

I think what might help a little is if the police weren't driving around on solo missions. Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto to get beat up for him.

True, everyone knows the movie trope of cop partners. But when was the last time you actually see two cops in a squad car together? Very rare in the US. In addition to having a partner, I also think all cops should be required to wear body cams now. They should be considered personal protection just as much as a vest.

Either way you look at it body cams help. They can help disprove false accusations of brutality, and perhaps dissuade bully cops from being assholes to innocent people.

 

[Vermillion_Hawk]

I think what might help a little is if the police weren't driving around on solo missions. Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto to get beat up for him.

True, everyone knows the movie trope of cop partners. But when was the last time you actually see two cops in a squad car together? Very rare in the US. In addition to having a partner, I also think all cops should be required to wear body cams now. They should be considered personal protection just as much as a vest.

Either way you look at it body cams help. They can help disprove false accusations of brutality, and perhaps dissuade bully cops from being assholes to innocent people.

The police around here, both the provincial and municipal, go around in pairs as far as I've seen.

 

[Austupaio]

I will say though, that the problem of body cams is that it's not just an expensive proposal, it's complicated as hell.

Extrapolation once I'm off my phone.

 

[Tibertus]

Notice I said the US. Every cops seems to have their own car here. Unless they have a motorcycle or horse. It's extremely rare to find a cop on foot any more, and you never see them in pairs.

As far as body cams go. If Russian drivers have figured out the logistics, I'd hope our police forces could do the same.