Feminism

[Weaver]

Yeah. Cue jokes about sperm banks.

Jokes aside, feminism (and other such revanchist movements in fact) can only be successful in countries with high standards of living. When middle-class golden billion males are being nagged by other groups, they can afford to yield some ground just to be left alone. I guess you should be happy your standards of living allow that. In my country average women don't bother with feminism because most men are struggling to feed their own wifes and kids and won't be willing to subsidize some abstract women. Same goes to ethnic issues. When dominant group is approached by minorities who are not happy with how things are, the answer is usually "Our lives are ****ty too. Want to live better? You do something about it."

 

[thick1988]

To which they would reply "We are doing something about it, we're *****ing."

 

[Merlkir]

We have extensive statistics in our equality-fanatic/hypocrisy country

Regardless of position whether a regular worker or CEO and such, women here tend to have a lower salary than their male counterparts.

In the feministan of Sweden? I find that hard to believe. (as for statistics, feminists also love to misinterpret statistics entirely, for examples look for my post on the previous page with links to stuff.)

 

[Úlfheðinn]

No, even in Sweden women by and large receive less pay than men.

That even the current government would report that is saying a lot, considering that they would probably love to report that they have increased gender equality.

 

[Ambalon]

No, even in Sweden women by and large receive less pay than men.

I don't get this statistics. What does this even mean? Here in Brazil two people doing the same job (regardless of how well/badly performed) are not allowed to be payed differently, yet we also have some data like this. How does this happen?

 

[Merlkir]

(usually by misinterpreting the data. again, see my post two pages back.)

 

[Jhessail]

It's so lovely to see the proud members of that single group that has been, and still is, most heavily oppressed, everywhere, circling their wagons in defense.

First thing, few more facts from the Steubenville trial and media circus surrounding it:

There's your misogyny, in plain view.

As for the gender pay gap being an illusion - a bull**** claim, of course:
http://www.universitybusiness.co.uk/?q=news/gender-pay-gap-still-exists-graduates/5671

Noteworthy here is that the study compared graduates working in the same field, in similar entry-level jobs. Women were earning significantly less.

For those crying about me wanting to put innocent men into jail, who probably also whine and cry about false rape accusations, have a dose of reality:
http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/

They have very good list of sources as well. When Wheem can offer similar sources for violent crime based on skin color and/or ethnicity, we can discuss his analogy.

In conclusion, go eat a a bag of dicks.

 

[MadocComadrin]

Now, I just looked at some data that compared NORC surveys versus the FBI Crime reports, and I don't think that infographic is correct--at least not for the US.

Also, that's not the worst thing a guy can expect when getting drunk-he could get mugged, beat up, or worse drugged--either directly (for lulz or rape) or by drinking something meant for someone else. Most universities often (right after they warn female freshmen about date rape) tell male freshmen that they aren't above getting drugged or having something horrible done to them if they're well beyond drunk, and in fact, my cousin nearly died from it.

 

[Evelyn]

Now, I just looked at some data that compared NORC surveys versus the FBI Crime reports, and I don't think that infographic is correct--at least not for the US.

Also, that's not the worst thing a guy can expect when getting drunk-he could get mugged, beat up, or worse drugged--either directly (for lulz or rape) or by drinking something meant for someone else. Most universities often (right after they warn female freshmen about date rape) tell male freshmen that they aren't above getting drugged or having something horrible done to them if they're well beyond drunk, and in fact, my cousin nearly died from it.

And on that note, something else to consider is that nobody really takes a male seriously if the male is reporting that he was raped by a female. A lot of people seem to have this illusion than only males can be rapists, and only females can be the victims of rape. It's a horrible, terrible double standard.

 

[Untitled.]

Not to mention that rape victims get a lot of sympathy from society. The accused, no matter if guilty or not, is probably looking forward to an absolutely devastated life.

 

[Jhessail]

Now, I just looked at some data that compared NORC surveys versus the FBI Crime reports, and I don't think that infographic is correct--at least not for the US.

If you had looked at the website, they clearly state that the graph is a composite of several different sources, all amalgamated together to make an average. Depending on the source, fake rape accusations range from 2% to 90%. I bet Merlkirl subscribes to the latter camp. Similarly, the real number of unreported rapes is contested.

Not to mention that rape victims get a lot of sympathy from society. The accused, no matter if guilty or not, is probably looking forward to an absolutely devastated life.

Did you just completely gloss over the Twitter screencaps I posted? That were a reaction to this:

 

[Lascivo]

隐藏: Now let's actually look at the truth

I think I know why women aren't earning as much as men, they aren't working hard enough. It all makes perfect sense to me now.

Either way, private employers should be able to pay as much as they want to whoever they want.

 

[rebelsquirrell]

Wheem's analogy demonstrates that what you want would be racism in another context, so quantity is irrelevant.


Your calling for "justified discrimination" to which the proper reply to is "go eat a bag of dicks."

When the chamber is spun in a game of Russian roulette there is 16.67% chance that I paint the wall with my brains.

So if offered a mansion if I win the game I'm a fool for not accepting the offer because there is a 88.33% chance that I'll live. Sounds kool


On that note people who are tried but found not guilty shouldn't still be counted as rapists.

People reported but not trialed because of the claims being found to be groundless should not count either

Also in order to be counted as a false conviction you have to prove your innocence.

Also a lot of studies show that when the term rape is not used but rather it's legal definition is given then the number of rapes drops.


Not to mention that going to prison is a for a huge time thousand times worse than being raped imo.

Not that my opinion matters because I have no right to strip half the population of there right to a fair trial.


Regarding the inevitable reply of " OMGERD YOU RAPE APOLOGIST HOW COULD YOU THAT PRISON IS WORSE!": I have a funeral to go to so I'll have to get back to that.

 

[Patchouli Knowledge]

Now, I have to assume you've been both raped and incarcerated, otherwise I'd have to think you were talking out of your ass about things you can't possibly understand.

 

[rebelsquirrell]

Now, I have to assume you've been both raped and incarcerated, otherwise I'd have to think you were talking out of your ass about things you can't possibly understand.

Anticipation of utilitarian argument, which would kinda require that.

 

[MadocComadrin]

@Jhess: and I the numbers I saw were presented in my Criminal Justice class specifically for a lecture--I'm more inclined to trust them then some infographic from a project that doesn't have the same steam behind them as NORC or the FBI, as well as one that presents the information as a social issue rather than in the form of criminal justice.

Also, take a look at the comments on various sites about those reports from CNN--nearly all of them decry the reporters and CNN in general for allowing them to say that.

 

[Merlkir]

Alrighty.

1)

True. Considering how ridiculously high Schwartz's sentence was in general, it's hardly surprising. Not only a case of being soft on rape, rather a case of being super tough on hackers/pirates.

2)

Oh woe is me. Because everyone thinks exactly that and that is exactly what happens. Cry more.

3)

Because they had to photograph something. If there was a picture of the victim crying, you'd complain about victim shaming and media vultures feasting on her misery. Should they just add a picture of a judge mallet? Maybe no photos at all?
Nope, they show you the ****ing rapists and that they're crying about punisment they're getting. EVIL MEDIA!

4)

I am intrigued. Has this actually happened in court?

As for the gender pay gap being an illusion - a bull**** claim, of course:
http://www.universitybusiness.co.uk/?q=news/gender-pay-gap-still-exists-graduates/5671

Right. Except that's an article on some uni business websity. No sources to speak of, just a link to Futuretrack. So, I read the report.

To begin with, here's a quote from the actual article: 

“Since it would be unlawful for employers to pay males and females doing the same job differently, something else must be happening to female graduate earnings.

Yes, something sinister and evil, hidden misogyny which we can't quite find.

From the actual report:

Mostrespondents having managerial and professional jobs, and theirfull‐time median
earnings are in line with the national pay butthere is a large gender pay gap. The same
proportion of respondentsis employed in the public and private sectors butmost work
in the service sector, especially in Businessservices. Most have permanent jobst hey
have worked in for 2‐10 years with employers employing 100 ormore people. The
majority have managerial and professional jobs, especially men, and the median annual
pay of £25,000 forfull‐time employeesis slightly below the national average of £25,882.
There is a large gender pay gap of 32% among full‐time workers:men’smedian full‐time
earnings are £29,000 while women’s are £22,000.

You may notice something interesting - it's the exact same thing as I talked about before. They're comparing a median value between all males and females. They're not comparing people with the same jobs, the equality is in the starting position of college graduates. (notice how "especially the men" have managerial and professional jobs. Strange data set for comparison.)

They're also comparing "full time jobs", which as explained before often means significantly different amounts of hours. (and as explained before, men tend to work more hours on average than women do)

It's the same old song.

Hey, if we're trading articles, here's one. (written by a woman, about a female doctor's work)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lisaquast/2011/03/14/debunking-myths-of-gender-equality-are-personal-choices-and-preferences-whats-really-holding-women-back-from-achieving-parity-at-work/

And yet another one by a woman. Oh those self hating idiots.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

As for your infographic:

- "Fewer than 100% of rapes are reported to the police because social, emotional, and legal barriers still exist."  ---> at first it's "fewer than 100%". Yep. Fewer than 100% of all other crimes are also reported.
- "Our justice system isn’t perfect.  Sometimes innocent people are charged.  And sometime guilty people go free.  That doesn’t mean that men and women aren’t being raped and sexually assaulted.  It means there are improvements that can be made all around." ----> Amusingly, this is our point exactly. Setting up biased and discriminating laws is NOT an improvement.
- "The purpose of the graphic was to put the FEAR of false accusation in perspective, not to discount the very real impact that a false report or false accusation has on someone’s life."  To put things in perspective - the chance of a false accusation is what? 500:1? That's not exactly insignificant.
- "Of those 1,000 rapes, we applied a 10% reporting rate (100)"  - curiously, considering that:
"“Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.”" --->  So, between 75 and 95 (ie 5-25%), they decided to go with 10%? It looks better in the infographic for sure, but the average is obviously 15%.
- "Estimates". How is this estimated? It's an awfully high number, I'd expect some mention of the methodology. The government report doesn't seem to offer any.
- to be fair, they round up the amount of "faced trial" from 28.5% to 30%.
- as pointed out in the comments, the graphic substitutes little figures of men for cases of rape, not actual rapists. Many rapists are serial offenders, which skews this a bit.
- for some reason, the figures gets smaller towards the right side of the graphic. I wonder why. 
- “when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of
false reports begin to converge around 2-8%."  ---> curiously, they choose to use 2%, while the average is 5%.  Also this:
" (I should also note that this is the number of cases proven false: more cases may actually be false, but the investigators were unable to tell– it is just as hard to prove that a rape didn’t happen than it is to prove that it did.)"

It's interesting and seems slightly biased, but I would like to know more about how the estimates of unreported rape are done. And this is still not a rason to discriminate in law to put more men in jail.

 

[Merlkir]

Depending on the source, fake rape accusations range from 2% to 90%. I bet Merlkirl subscribes to the latter camp. Similarly, the real number of unreported rapes is contested.

Dude. Did I ever express an opinion that a significant percentage of rape accusations are fake? No. I did not imply anything like that. You keep going through your hardwired feminist motions and putting us into a box you're taught to recognize - ie. "rape apologists who shame victims and believe in rampant fake accusations."

We explained quite a few times it's not about the ratio of fake:true.

Jeez. BTW, I don't mind dicks, I'd eat some.

edit: from the comments:

Amy Logan wrote: >”But how do they know of so many rapes if they aren’t reported?”
The source given was “Statistics from Justice Department, National Crime Victimization Survey: 2006-2010 and FBI reports.”
The link leads to “Victimizations not reported to the police 2006-2010″. A summary is here: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/press/vnrp0610pr.cfm
stating: “Although serious violent crime was generally less likely to go unreported to the police than simple assault, a higher percentage of rape or sexual assault (65 percent) than simple assault (56 percent) victimizations went unreported over the five-year period.”
This corresponds to a 35% rate of report. The graphic assumed 10%, which is considerably lower. The source for the lower value is not cited.

If this is true, there is indeed a difference between unreported sexual assault and regular assault. 9%. To put things in perspective, where are crowds calling for improvements in regular assault report rates?

 

[MadocComadrin]

Also, about the Aaron Schwarz thing: that's an issue with current Cybersecurity laws, policy and corruption. There have been repeated instances of hackers, both legit and falsely accused, getting or potentially facing more time than most murderers and rapists. In fact, trying to twist that issue to make any sort of insinuation about any form of rape culture is an insult to everyone trying to fix these issues.

 

[Wheem]

When Wheem can offer similar sources for violent crime based on skin color and/or ethnicity, we can discuss his analogy.

In conclusion, go eat a a bag of dicks.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3
Couple things:
1) This is for murder, not assault (which is what I'd originally mentioned in the analogy). I actually didn't see any racial breakdown for assault figures, but I see no reason to believe that they'd be radically different, and murder could fit the analogy anyway.

2) It appears that whites and hispanics are put together in the linked table, though in some figures they are not (and sometimes they're broken down further into "whites of hispanic origin" and "whites of no hispanic origin"). According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States whites (again, grouped together with hispanics) are 72.4% of the American population, while blacks are 12.6% - keep those numbers in mind when looking at the expanded homicide data table.

Since you were apparently fine with the premise that it'd be A-OK for courts to accept a white man's testimony as fact over a black man's, as long as I provided some data that wasn't simply a theoretical, you can now fully own that racist position.

Sorry, black man. You don't get to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Jhessail, in her infinite and totally non-bigoted wisdom, has decreed that too many people who look like you have committed too many crimes, so all of your rights get wiped away as a result. You're in the unfortunate position of not being able to prove that you killed that white man in self defense, and his white friend says that you got those injuries because they were trying to fight off your violent attack. Have fun spending the rest of your life in prison for murder, hopefully the state that convicts you with nothing more than the he-said-she-said evidence doesn't have the death penalty as an option!