Feminism
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Merlkir
Adorno 说:
Wage gap feminists usually don't talk about the same exact job position and same hours either, it's based on a general average.
Merlkir
Amontadillo 说:
Obviously. The point was - the claim that women get paid less (as a general rule, mind you) for the exact same work seems like a flawed conclusion, if you look what the actual data is about.
You also see some weird statistical things happen. For example, a hospital not too far from where I live was sued for wage discrimination by the nurses, assistants and other staff, as the average wage for a woman their was significantly less than a male's from the same group of people. In court, the defense split each group (male and female, that is) at the middle, and calculated the average of the high-groups and the low-groups and found that for both groups, females had a higher average wage then the males.
Merlkir
Amontadillo 说:
Yes indeed. The typical feminist claim is "Women earn less for the exact same work than men do." They will give you percentages, usually it's like 7% difference, or something of the sort.
These numbers are averaged salaries of all women and all men across all kinds of jobs, it tells you nothing about specific discrimination, nor does it suggest there is any. (There is, obviously, cases like that do surface here and there, but it's rare, not at all the general widespread opression of world's womanhood)
There are quite a few reasons why women on average make slightly less than men.
http://www.mensenews.org/gender-issues-articles/item/35-wage-gap-debunked-by-feminist-organization.html
Feminists mostly ignore this and simply repeat the line of "oh, it's the managers, never hiring women, never giving them promotion".
Which is unfortunate for women, but completely understandable from a business point of view. I'm not sure how it is in the US, but here the employer has to keep paying a woman on maternity leave and has to keep her position open and give it back to her when she comes back. That's hassle any company wants to avoid.
Similarly to enforcing quotas for women in politics, I don't think it's wise or "right" to force companies to hire women, if they do not want to.
Like it or not, this is the case. Yes, yes, we hear of more and more men going on paternity leave, but it's still pretty uncommon (at least here). Men are simply expected to work harder, if they have kids to feed. They can't afford to leave a job.
*facepalm*
a bit of a troll counterargument I've heard and lol'd at:
If women do the same work for less, why wouldn't all companies ever hire only women? It would be the right thing to do, from a business perspective.
edit: sample comments come from this article:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/the-ambition-myth-debunking-a-common-excuse-for-the-gender-wage-gap/265744/
Evil_Spock and FattyFatMan point out the flaws in this "research".
The stupidest comments most filled with hate and "omg men wanna bring the women down!" are made by Sandy Reis, a woman from Sweden. GIRL POWER!
Merl, you should chill. This thread is not about bashing feminists.
That said, I'm curious about the salary discussion.
In my country you are either employed by the state and your salary can only be modified based on your education and experience. Or you work in the private sector where your salary only depends on how aggressively you can haggle for it with your employer.
Does it work differently in other countries?
That said, I'm curious about the salary discussion.
In my country you are either employed by the state and your salary can only be modified based on your education and experience. Or you work in the private sector where your salary only depends on how aggressively you can haggle for it with your employer.
Does it work differently in other countries?
Merlkir
Nah, nah, chillin' over here. It's just tiresome to hear the wage gap thing repeated over and over as a well known fact.
I suspect the idea is that women simply can't haggle for equally as much as men, because employers hate women.
I suspect the idea is that women simply can't haggle for equally as much as men, because employers hate women.
Weaver 说:
Certainly. In Canada at least, having a university degree and/or prior experience will affect your salary regardless of what sector you're working in. In Canada I would also go so far as to say there's little or no gender boundary in terms of employment. Most of my father's superiors in the company he worked in were female actually. However, sometimes hiring women is looked down on slightly due to a fairly common practice of some women abusing maternity leave - basically, some women automatically have children and get hired and get their one year of paid leave, then they often quit, find a new job and do the same thing.
pentagathus
Baron
Like a virgin birth?Vermillion_Hawk 说:
But yeah, I've heard about that too. A woman who had a pretty high post in the company my dad works at went on maternity leave and when she came back she worked the minimum time she had to (a few months IIRC) before she had a new kid. I think she had 4 kids in all. An every time she was on maternity leave the company had to pay her salaries. Plus they had to find someone else to do her job since she was essential.
Finally some dude sacked her when they grew tired enough of it. Of course, it's illegal (which is probably why they didn't do it in the first place) so she sued the company and got enough money to feed her family for ages to come.
Untitled. 说:
But yeah, I've heard about that too. A woman who had a pretty high post in the company my dad works at went on maternity leave and when she came back she worked the minimum time she had to (a few months IIRC) before she had a new kid. I think she had 4 kids in all. An every time she was on maternity leave the company had to pay her salaries. Plus they had to find someone else to do her job since she was essential.
Finally some dude sacked her when they grew tired enough of it. Of course, it's illegal (which is probably why they didn't do it in the first place) so she sued the company and got enough money to feed her family for ages to come.
And now she's set for life I'm sure. Garbage
Skyrage
Master Knight
My 2 cents:
Feminism: a movement which in some cases have been taken to it's extreme forms here in Sweden. Then again these extremists all tend to be butt-ugly females who've probably never been laid in their entire lives and whom most likely live in a fantasy world not unlike that of leftwing extremists. Oh and they genuinely hate men and see themselves as tragic victims of fate.
For normal, modern and mentally stable people, gender equality is an obvious given as long as you also don't forget that there are differences due to the way biology works. Certain fields have unfortunately suffered because of extremism, such as the noteworthy example of firefighters whom prioritize in taking in females in order to fill a certain gender quota AND reduce requirements in order to pass.
Yes, women can be just as effective firefighters as men but this most likely means you have to work a bit harder as a woman and probably have a certain mindset on top in order to reach the same level as a man. Overall it is exactly the same the other way around. Jobs that require a certain level of empathy and such most likely requires a lot more effort from men than women before men reach the same level as the women. Jobs such as kindergarten, nursing, to an extent teaching etc are jobs that women by default tend to have a natural advantage. Doesn't mean in the slightest that men aren't capable of doing them though.
The thing is, should I be caught in a house that is on fire then the last thing I would care about is whether it is a man or a woman who saves me but I frigging expect that whoever tries to save me actually is damned capable of doing so.
This is just one example of how far the extremism has been pushed. Performance for physically demanding jobs being sacrificed in the name of gender equality.
There is not to say that there aren't problems elsewhere. Salary gaps for identical jobs performed is still a common occurrence and makes no frigging sense whatsoever. I once thought that it was mainly due to the older generation that still needs time to simply die off once and for all but frankly there are signs that this male dominance may survive a final generation. Obviously women still need to learn how to be a bit more pushy when it comes to salary negotiations and stuff like that but preferably not go to those awful extremist lengths.
In the end what it comes down to: **** gender, it should all be about performance and capabilities. It's as simple as that. As for rights and such, I assume we then talk about more primitive countries such as India, Islamic-ruled countries etc. Nothing a really healthy dose of education can't solve - then again whether they want to accept it or not that's their frigging problem. In the west I dare say there are in fact cases where women have more rights than men, such as divorce/custody matters. Ironically enough it is also coined on the premises that the male is the provider and head of the family aka the dominant figure. Funny isn't it? :p
Feminism: a movement which in some cases have been taken to it's extreme forms here in Sweden. Then again these extremists all tend to be butt-ugly females who've probably never been laid in their entire lives and whom most likely live in a fantasy world not unlike that of leftwing extremists. Oh and they genuinely hate men and see themselves as tragic victims of fate.
For normal, modern and mentally stable people, gender equality is an obvious given as long as you also don't forget that there are differences due to the way biology works. Certain fields have unfortunately suffered because of extremism, such as the noteworthy example of firefighters whom prioritize in taking in females in order to fill a certain gender quota AND reduce requirements in order to pass.
Yes, women can be just as effective firefighters as men but this most likely means you have to work a bit harder as a woman and probably have a certain mindset on top in order to reach the same level as a man. Overall it is exactly the same the other way around. Jobs that require a certain level of empathy and such most likely requires a lot more effort from men than women before men reach the same level as the women. Jobs such as kindergarten, nursing, to an extent teaching etc are jobs that women by default tend to have a natural advantage. Doesn't mean in the slightest that men aren't capable of doing them though.
The thing is, should I be caught in a house that is on fire then the last thing I would care about is whether it is a man or a woman who saves me but I frigging expect that whoever tries to save me actually is damned capable of doing so.
This is just one example of how far the extremism has been pushed. Performance for physically demanding jobs being sacrificed in the name of gender equality.
There is not to say that there aren't problems elsewhere. Salary gaps for identical jobs performed is still a common occurrence and makes no frigging sense whatsoever. I once thought that it was mainly due to the older generation that still needs time to simply die off once and for all but frankly there are signs that this male dominance may survive a final generation. Obviously women still need to learn how to be a bit more pushy when it comes to salary negotiations and stuff like that but preferably not go to those awful extremist lengths.
In the end what it comes down to: **** gender, it should all be about performance and capabilities. It's as simple as that. As for rights and such, I assume we then talk about more primitive countries such as India, Islamic-ruled countries etc. Nothing a really healthy dose of education can't solve - then again whether they want to accept it or not that's their frigging problem. In the west I dare say there are in fact cases where women have more rights than men, such as divorce/custody matters. Ironically enough it is also coined on the premises that the male is the provider and head of the family aka the dominant figure. Funny isn't it? :p
Merlkir
Other than this, I really quite agree, but
How is that an obvious fact? Studies and statistics seem to indicate the opposite and one or two cases here and there are not "common occurence". I sure do hear about it a lot from feminists, but they repeat all kinds of stuff.
(one example for all - the wonderful myth that 1 in 4 women will get raped in her life.)
How is that an obvious fact? Studies and statistics seem to indicate the opposite and one or two cases here and there are not "common occurence". I sure do hear about it a lot from feminists, but they repeat all kinds of stuff.
(one example for all - the wonderful myth that 1 in 4 women will get raped in her life.)
rebelsquirrell
Grandmaster Knight
Ultimately the best way to judge a equal rights movement is to ask these IMO:
Do they cry "We are victims give us equality!"
Or do the Cry "We are victims privilege/special protection."
The next question being what do you think should be done about that?
Do they cry "We are victims give us equality!"
Or do the Cry "We are victims privilege/special protection."
Skyrage 说:Merlkir 说:
We have extensive statistics in our equality-fanatic/hypocrisy country
Regardless of position whether a regular worker or CEO and such, women here tend to have a lower salary than their male counterparts.
The next question being what do you think should be done about that?
lordJehovah
Grandmaster Knight
Yeah, here too, it seems that many of people just shout " Hey, we don't get our rights" and use it to eat up the rights of the more deserving.
But on a side note, the thing most amusing here is that the government is introducing... guess what?
WOMEN BANKS.
I mean, does it even make any sense?
But on a side note, the thing most amusing here is that the government is introducing... guess what?
WOMEN BANKS.
I mean, does it even make any sense?
rebelsquirrell
Grandmaster Knight
Pachinko 说:Yeah, here too, it seems that many of people just shout " Hey, we don't get our rights" and use it to eat up the rights of the more deserving.
But on a side note, the thing most amusing here is that the government is introducing... guess what?
WOMEN BANKS.
I mean, does it even make any sense?
Like banks solely for women.....?
Now would be a time for a "Interest" pun, but if I said one that would only compound the problem.
