This is only "true" for the big cities. People in rural areas are still in extreme poverty. Or people who come from rural areas to work in the big cities. Besides, there's a lot going on with it that I can't really put together because I just woke up. Lowered standard for what is considered poverty, IP thefts, cheap labor, etc. To be completely honest I'm not an economist so I can't talk about these with confidence, but the point here is that the Chinese people are on such economic pressure that some of their youths have completely given up on the future. I don't think good economic numbers justify having such social condition.This often does lead to internal turmoil which can often seem apocalyptic at times, but it also creates the fastest economic growth in human history. The average wage in China is higher than anything I could hope for in London, the cost of living is far lower, and extreme poverty has been almost completely eradicated.
Right. You're talking about middle eastern countries when saying this, right? To be completely honest with you, I don't like the middle east. I think that whole area is a mess and their nonsense bleeds into Indonesia. One of our biggest issues, Islamist extremists, come from there. You won't see me defending whatever is going on in the middle east. Their issue is deeply rooted in their application of Islam in general. You refer to this as Islamic fundamentalists I believe. They really need to get that solved before we can talk about other issues like feminism, and forcing a western feminist movement into them is not going to work.That is actually what most Islamic feminists start from, and it's not got them a lot of progress.
Only if you see it with a pre-existing prejudice. Your ideological alignment led you to make that jump because I was on the opposing side. What I meant is that they obviously are normal people, and thus completely capable to do what I was suggesting. That's what I meant by it not being that hard. Again, it's such an obvious fact that I didn't feel the need to specify it. I know they're capable of living normally, and some of them already are.This comes across as you saying that trans people are not normal and not okay human beings.
Yeah obviously. I don't even know why you even bothered pointing this out.By the way, men and women who are comfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth can and are hated and discriminated against.
No, quite the opposite. Gender dysphoria is such a rare condition that the majority of people don't know about it. Meanwhile being male or female is such an obvious, seen-everywhere differences. People learned to accept the difference because it's such a core part of human society. Men live among women throughout the entire human history everywhere. Even cavemen could differentiate between men and women.The only reason why it might be a bit easier for them than it is for trans people is that their differences are more difficult to see if they are trying to hide them.
No. I can't even figure out how you came to that conclusion from what I wrote. I made such clear and simple statements that should just be taken as they are.This to me is like saying to a man that they should try wearing a skirt or a bra sometimes because their not doing so is making other people uncomfortable.
I don't understand the refusal on this either. You can even see it everywhere on Twitter. How is it not a thing? Why are you so sure that nowhere in the world, nowhere on the world wide web, that people did those? Well thanks to the mods I can't post proofs of what I meant or even mention them, but go look at what materials they're putting in western education nowadays.If you are referring to the elements that were removed by Monty in your previous comments, those are not a thing. That just does not happen.
No. I never even said the word "hide" or "shut up". I don't know how to make it even clearer. The acceptance happens in so many parts of the world, about so many minority groups, at various periods of time. I'll explain one example in length, as clearly as possible.Where? How? You are saying (or at least come across as saying) that people should hide who they are to be accepted by other groups that hate them.
Back then in say, Indonesia, people heavily discriminated against different religious groups. For example as a Muslim I grew up with people around me whispering that Christians are bad and stuff. It's literally an "eww Christians" kind of sentiment. However, throughout the years, we have lived next to Christians. Keep in mind that they never preached about anything. Never talked about discrimination or prejudice. They're just there, being our neighbors, and we regularly talked to them. We then learned that hey, turns out Christians aren't bad people. They're just normal people. They don't corrupt our children like we feared. They're just like us. Some are good some are bad. Okay then. No more discriminating against Christians.
That, is common. Swap Christians to Buddhists, black people, Chinese, atheists, whatever. It happens to them too. The reason you don't see this in media is because it's such a peaceful and natural process that's not worth writing about. It just happens. If I swap that with trans people, it would work out the same too. The thing is, when it comes to LGBT, it's not done like that. People come in waving flags and calling others bigots. Why? Because people are impatient these days. They want fast results. They don't want to let it marinate for years like in the example I gave. They want people to accept LGBT now, and it's such a profitable thing to write about. Outrage and drama are interesting. Even in our times of peace we watch conflicts (usually fantasy) to keep ourselves entertained.
The "gender affirming care" I'm thinking of doesn't seem effective, that's the thing. Continues with below:There is actual, proper research and effective treatments. The treatment is gender affirming care.
That depression and high suicide rate is among what I meant by "what's truly important". I mean, it's still pretty high now isn't it? Even with people who take the surgery. That's why I said the treatment doesn't seem effective, so there must be other factors. I've done this kind of debates a lot, and oftentimes I found that people get really upset when I refer to gender dysphoria as a disease or mental help problem. That's why I used the word "condition" in this thread. It's essentially a mental help problem, but keep in mind that it's okay to be sick. You don't have to be perfect, as nobody is, and having certain sickness doesn't justify discrimination against you.I am also unclear on what you mean when you talk about "what's truly important". What is truly important in life? Gender dysphoria is associated to depression and high suicide rates if it is not treated appropriately.
Discussions usually stop here thanks to the outrage, but if I were allowed to go even further, I'd bring up how trans identity doesn't only root from gender dysphoria or genetics. For example, if parents abuse their son because they wanted a daughter, that son can wound up as a transgender later in life. There have been cases of this. It's clearly not okay (abuse to this degree), but many people would wrongly diagnose this condition as gender dysphoria.
There's nothing more I can say than look it up. There's so much outrage around this movement and for some reason you and the others haven't seen it. I'm already limited in my speech here, and that itself is a form of aggression, minor as it may be.I don't see this aggressiveness. Again, what are you talking about specifically?
I think this boils down to what each of us meant by "changing". Standard of measurement kind of thing. I'd say millions of Jews getting killed is a social change, but you seem to only refer to more long-lasting and drastic changes as a real change.I would however like to point out that German society did not change as much as you think, because Hitler had a lot of support from Germans. They kind of liked what he was doing, just like Italians liked what Mussolini did. Both rode to power on sentiments that were already there. And I really did not leave the holocaust period out, I am just saying that it failed to generate the change that they were looking for.
Yeah. On the second part of that, it's not against "LGBT people wanting to live peacefully." As I've pointed out, they should just live peacefully. The LGBT movement is not really pushing for that, even though it might be unintentional."Us vs them" is exactly the problem, so I am glad we agree on that at least. Again, I don't see where you see the ideological part in LGBT people wanting to live their life in peace.
I wasn't exclusively referring to what DestructoRama mentioned, but she did have a point. She was just too aggressive and rude about it (proving my point once more about aggressiveness). Then again I'm not allowed to talk about the details.I definitely agree with you that we should all talk more to people from other countries. It's part of why I like this forum. But once more, I don't understand what you are talking about here:
[we really don't like what we see going on in the US around this subject]
DestructoRama is, I am quite sure, fully immersed in an alternative reality echo chamber where she gets constantly told that LGBT people are deep frying children in pizza or some other nonsense.