Feminism

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rektasaurus

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But I do know what privilege *is*. There are things that other people face that I don’t have to because I have the privilege to be born in a condition that isn’t them.

I’m not talking about privilege as in it’s a privilege and not a right like a driver’s license. The whole notion of privilege bugs because it’s like the privilege that, say, a white male enjoys, like the opportunity to become a c suite executive or not be hassled by cops, is something that can be taken away and not a right that every human should have access to. But go and try to explain that I think the fact that that concept was somehow decided to be called “privilege” is like a huge troll joke.

I did specifically ask for clarification sandwiched in between my whining. It’s something I truly can’t understand and it’s to the point where I honestly don’t believe I could ever be a good boyfriend or husband and no longer even know how to initiate a relationship because I don’t want to mix romance and sex with any relationship.

Another part of it is fueled by empathy. Sure, I feel awful for women who are victims of honor killing or who are kept locked away like concubines. I could never deny their existence or plight. But to completely ignore the male experience just seems wrong to me, especially the myth that men are the sole perpetrators of these horrors.

And that denial is what’s been a part of my experience. Sure, I’m not denying that the republicans have been trying to turn feminism into a dirty word. I’m trying to say it’s not as simple as that. I thought pretty hard about expressing myself here on a public forum on the internet. Usually, in real life, I just keep my mouth shut and listen. I actually don’t know how to talk about it in real life with people.
 

Bromden

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It all goes back to relating it to nazism isnt it
You mean my swastika metaphor? No, it has nothing to do with feminism being related to nazism. It was just to show how something's meaning can change for the worse in the perception of the public if it is abused enough. But nice attempt at using your brain, here's another treat. You'll get more if you start using punctuation.
 

Evelyn

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You could say the same, but you would be wrong.
I'm not so sure about that. I'm not quite certain that you're capable of expressing any emotion aside from contempt, and you definitely don't have a solid track record for having an open mind, nor patience, about things you don't understand. In retrospect, your post was pretty obvious bait that I shouldn't have replied to, but here we are.

But I do know what privilege *is*
No, your first post proves that you really don't.

It’s something I truly can’t understand and it’s to the point where I honestly don’t believe I could ever be a good boyfriend or husband
I would agree, based on your first post I don't believe you to have a healthy mindset regarding women. You've played this up in your mind to be some sort of boogeyman that doesn't exist in the real world, and you've spent too much time on places like 4chan and the bad parts of reddit. When you lash out in massive entitled temper-tantrums about how you totally don't hate women but your post really says that you hate women, or at least, the idea of women that you've created in your mind, don't be surprised when you don't have people lining up to nicely explain all of the things you're missing. Moreover, you're conflating the expectations the male gender has for itself with the expectations feminism has of men - there is a reason why toxic masculinity is discussed, and it is specifically about a situation you described in your first post, where men of certain personalities are considered inferior. Fun fact: It is not feminism that considers this to be true. My advice? Therapy.

and no longer even know how to initiate a relationship because I don’t want to mix romance and sex with any relationship.
More therapy. If it weren't for this line I would say that you sound like a stereotypical incel, if I'm honest. Maybe even with this line. Either way: Therapy.

My point is that at some point in time, in order for gender equality to persist in the least damaging fashion, an adversarial attitude needs to be replaced with one of cooperation and that is absolutely undeniable.
And let me guess, you think that your massive temper tantrum was the perfect example of an attitude of cooperation and reconciliation, right?

wanting to raise awareness for men’s issues is perceived as some sort of nascent incel state terrorist bull****.
It isn't, no, but you're not raising awareness for men's issues, you're railing against women on a videogame forum.

If feminists can’t acknowledge that and pivot to ensure women as well as men understand that raising a family takes a stable household then the movement is doomed.
What does this even mean? What about feminism to you suggests that it's against a 'stable household'? What is a 'stable household'?

Women need fathers too for ****s sake. If there was a worldwide movement focusing solely on toxic femininity and ignoring toxic masculinity I would be livid too. The whole idea is difficult for me to wrap my tiny brain around because if we’re pursuing gender equality shouldn’t it just be toxicity? Am I wrong?
Toxic femininity exists, it's known and acknowledged. However, when you have two houses, and one house is on fire, which house should be prioritized by the firetruck? Toxic masculinity hurts both men as well as women, however - as a male-dominated society (omegalul if you think that women getting the vote magically makes them equal or something, btw), toxic masculinity is in a position to hurt far more people than toxic femininity, and in much greater ways. Yes, men can experience sexism, as any individual can experience any sort of discrimination, but the point you're missing here is the idea of SYSTEMIC discrimination. Which men don't face in a male-dominated society.

I'm pretty sure you're gonna freak out about this or something, but like, whatever. The bottom line is that you have a very unhealthy mindset about:
A) Men
B) Women
C) Yourself

I'd highly advise talking to a specialist about your intimacy issues, and finding some actually qualified people to talk to when it comes to understanding social issues as opposed to video game forums and wherever else you've gleaned your worldview from. You are ultimately damaging yourself and your own happiness by letting this much hatred and frustration bubble inside of you like this, and I feel like you might have some trauma below the surface that you haven't quite dealt with, which you're using to feed into this viewpoint. I would advise, again, therapy, and seeking out healthier coping methods.

That's all I'm really willing to engage in this discussion with. Have fun, guys.
 

rektasaurus

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Sometimes I do let out more personal feelings than I should. I don’t mean to lash out but I’m not railing against women, I’m criticizing a movement and talking about my experiences.

The problem I personally have with the way feminism pursues gender equality is that toxic masculinity is seen as something that negatively impacts men and women but then assertions are made that men don’t face systemic or institutional discrimination. It’s not true. This flaw in reasoning is literally the opening that has been being exploited to throw a wrench in feminist gender equality efforts. My first post was a brief outline of the gendered discrimination I’ve experienced. If toxic masculinity also hurts me, does that mean that the only things that are socially acceptable for me to whine about is that I can’t wear a dress and be limp-wristed without being judged? And at what point is it okay for the fire truck to switch from dousing the burning toxic masculinity house to the burning toxic femininity house? Maybe a duplex, I point out with extreme bitterness, is a better analogy... what happens when the fire spreads from one end of the house to the other but the fire hoses don’t follow the flames?

Hatred? I really don’t think so. Please don’t pigeon hole me into the misogynistic incel mgtow bogeyman box. I truly don’t belong there. Frustration? Definitely. Serious question, is the incel insult a result of toxic masculinity or femininity?

So to reiterate my answer to the topic of the post. By virtue of its name, feminism is discriminatory in nature, although its purpose is to promote gender equality. Because words and labels matter and have an effect. I did my best to put some subtlety there but I’m only human and sure I do bring my own baggage to the table.

Sadly, I believe if feminism had a different name, the movement would’ve been far more successful by now. Making that simple point has for sure attracted a ton of hostility as if I personally were the mentally damaged enemy stopping equality from being a reality and in need of psychological help. But I’m just a person trying my best to do good. How couldn’t I feel frustrated or cynical?
 

Яowan

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Sometimes I do let out more personal feelings than I should. I don’t mean to lash out but I’m not railing against women, I’m criticizing a movement and talking about my experiences.

-snip-
Out of curiosity, how many groups built around spreading awareness and educating issues handled by the concept feminism are you a member of - be it in your local community, or just at work? And how many lectures have you watched from your local community college or university on the subject. And beyond that, how deeply have you delved into the voluminous literature available on the subject?

Sadly, I believe if feminism had a different name, the movement would’ve been far more successful by now. Making that simple point has for sure attracted a ton of hostility as if I personally were the mentally damaged enemy stopping equality from being a reality and in need of psychological help. But I’m just a person trying my best to do good. How couldn’t I feel frustrated or cynical?
And yet the movement has been very successful. The fact people discuss it to any degree on a daily basis demonstrates it's success, no matter how uneducated some parties choose to make themselves on the topic. Policy makers all over the west, both corporate and political, push through and maintain policies all the time (despite attempts for reactionaries to push back said efforts).
 

Bromden

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I'm not so sure about that. I'm not quite certain that you're capable of expressing any emotion aside from contempt, and you definitely don't have a solid track record for having an open mind, nor patience, about things you don't understand. In retrospect, your post was pretty obvious bait that I shouldn't have replied to, but here we are.
Yes, I am aware that you are **** at reading people other than yourself. You method is practically painting your own flaws on others and attacking them by that without, yes, an open mind and patience. And I don't do baiting; I'm capable of getting convinved that I'm wrong, and it happened a lot before. But you'd need to present proper arguments for that, which you don't do. You only attack the person without any understanding of 'em. Yes, I use personal attacks in my posts too, which I learned here on this very forum along the years. But I try to add actual substance to my arguments. I know I have a certain posting style wwhich makes said arguments get misunderstood or fly over some people's heads, but the attempt to to add substance is there, I promise. Contrary to that, this post of yours only have misinformation about me and calling my argument a bait. That's not real substance.

"My advice: Therapy." is a really arrogant and insensitive thing to say, without any regard to what assistance should the actual person need. It really shows your stance on things: "if you don't think and behave like me, you need a doctor." Don't do that, it makes you look like a horrible person.
 
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rektasaurus

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Out of curiosity, how many groups built around spreading awareness and educating issues handled by the concept feminism are you a member of - be it in your local community, or just at work? And how many lectures have you watched from your local community college or university on the subject. And beyond that, how deeply have you delved into the voluminous literature available on the subject?
I’m not a member of any group. In my local community, I used to describe myself as a little blue man in a sea of red, but even that wouldn’t be an accurate description anymore. My knowledge on gender relations and feminism comes largely from being educated in my art and sociology classes, NPR, ted, and watching how women and men interact with each other, as well as my personal experiences with family, friends, and strangers. The materials linked on the sidebar of r/feminism take up a large part of my knowledge base, I couldn’t remember any names off the top of my head but I did put in my due diligence in good faith, since my sociology class didn’t go very much further than saying feminism is for equality for all genders. I don’t agree with the red pilled smv concepts but I’m very afraid that they have quite a bit of truth behind them. I think blue pill is a meme and I don’t like either community. MRA is an actual dirty word. Because of my nature, and personal experience, I’ve delved a bit deeper into reading feminist literature than I really had any business.

I don’t feel represented by feminism, even though I’m assured that I am. Although I’m an “ally”, the term makes my stomach turn, I’m treated like I’m the enemy and constantly told what I must be thinking instead of someone whose viewpoint or experience has any value. Even the concept that I should be understanding of the female experience and keep quiet and listen leads into the toxic masculinity of suppressing my viewpoints to the point where my outlet is literally on the internet. It’s not because I’m a coward hiding behind my screen in anonymity, it’s that I literally don’t know how to form the words in a discussion and I feel as frustrated as I did when we were all talking about gay marriage and contraception as if they were bad things and trying to convince others that they were actually good...
And yet the movement has been very successful. The fact people discuss it to any degree on a daily basis demonstrates it's success, no matter how uneducated some parties choose to make themselves on the topic. Policy makers all over the west, both corporate and political, push through and maintain policies all the time (despite attempts for reactionaries to push back said efforts).
Sure. It has been successful. Perhaps it could’ve been more successful. Can I dare to dream? I wonder how much of that is just lip service to win votes instead of true equality? Our society is going to have a huge problem learning how to teach women and men that fathers are important after the massive movement of teaching women they need to be afraid of and protected from men and putting them on the pedestal because they can bear children to undo the massive harm from the whole males asserting that their genes get passed forward through subjugation of the female womb paradigm that ****ed our **** up for a couple hundred decades. It reminds me more of a whack-a-mole solution to a problem than something that is truly thoughtful because now we actually do need to do damage control for the boys and I’m fairly certain there’s quite a bit of men and women who are nearing end of life feeling lonely, unhappy, maybe bitter, and I’m positive it’s going to get even worse as the millennials and gen z gets close to calling it quits unless some massive changes come to light. I’m not advocating for a single second to take anything away from women. Maybe for humanity as a whole this pendulum process is just how things must be but that means very little to the people left holding the bag.

Maybe all of this isn’t just some academic thought experiment about who best wears the pants in a relationship or who did what to who when. Maybe this isn’t some power play about which gender of the fraction of the 1% has the most control. Maybe some of us just want a decent person to be intimate with and raise a family without thinking about literally everything through the lens of domination and abuse. Maybe I, as a man, and like literally all normal men, have absolutely no interest in dominating or controlling my partner and just want to find one who won’t try to subjugate me or leave me out to dry.

So I don’t know, am I an edgy, incel reactionary trying to live out a male dominated fantasy spewing filth to undo the progress of feminism because of my hatred of women and my little pp cowardliness is afraid of giving up a teensy bit of power? I personally don’t think so. More power to the sperm banks I say. It does disturb me to be accused of such things though because that is someone who I never was nor ever will be.
 

Vermillion_Hawk

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So I don’t know, am I an edgy, incel reactionary trying to live out a male dominated fantasy spewing filth to undo the progress of feminism because of my hatred of women and my little pp cowardliness is afraid of giving up a teensy bit of power? I personally don’t think so. More power to the sperm banks I say. It does disturb me to be accused of such things though because that is someone who I never was nor ever will be.
Please don't take Evelyn's "advice".

I'll give you a bit of validation here because I used to worry about similar things in regards to future relationships, etc. I'm lucky enough to be married to an extraordinary lady, and it's with her experience that I have synthesized my own view of modern "feminism", which I'll try to distill relatively briefly. She's very successful and by all accounts self-made from quite a poor upbringing, and there was an early portion of the relationship where she made almost all the money in the household. In spite of this, or more likely, because of it, she generally despises "feminism" and those that call themselves feminists.

This is not because she does not support women's rights - she is, obviously, a woman and has the lived experience of one in the modern world, and knows that there is still a lot of work to be done in that regard. It is also not because she thinks women have a defined social role or anything like that - she had challenges dealing with those very things because she comes from a very conservative cultural community. It is because she doesn't feel that modern "feminism", long-term, has more of a negative effect on both men and women. This is because of a number of factors, which tie into my own views on the "movement".

One factor, of course, which you have experienced is the "with us or against us" nature of the movement. I would chalk this up to the same tribal extremism that has afflicted most community groups and political ideologies in the internet age. The ease of communication with essentially no consequences has led to a good number of communities forming around positions which would generally be considered untenable if you were ever to try to express them to anyone in actual public. This leads to a game of ideological chicken where a group can drift further and further into extremism. This is how communities like incels form, and modern "feminism" is a dark reflection of that, with the significant difference that it is built around an idea that is generally considered to be agreeable to most people. Who wouldn't want to advance the cause of women in modern society?

This brings up the other factor, that you get a diverse array of people under the umbrella of "feminism", and not all have good intentions. You will get people who innocently want to advance women - these are, obviously, not problematic, and I'd wager this group forms the majority. Then you get people who would form the vanguard of the kind of "feminism" that we're discussing, and it is here that people like you and I would take issue. It is also here that my lady takes serious umbrage, because she feels that this particular brand damages women.

It is in telling women to assert themselves that this modern "feminism" most damages them, especially when it comes to relationships. As I've said, the modern world is not perfect and it is definitely not perfect for women. I would never advise a woman be submissive in a bad relationship for the sake of preserving it - that being said, modern feminism (generally, there are few absolutes in this arena) advocates behaviour that is ultimately to the detriment of women. Once again, there is variation in intensity here, but I've seen stripping and other such acts of self-objectification termed as "empowering", along with, as you've mentioned, a general distrust in relationships, viewing them as a power struggle. It's no coincidence that this is also the era of the rise of "polyamory" as a defined sexual orientation.

I could go on about this (and about the reintroduction of a near-paternalistic, pseudo-Victorian image of women, but that's a discussion for another time) but I'll mostly sum it up with my personal belief that this modern "feminism", among many of the other blossoming communities in our brave new identitarian world, acts as a substitute for a backbone for extremely weak people. It's a lot easier to blame things on "the patriarchy" and generally on everyone but yourself. Weak women who don't take the time to improve themselves substantially in their careers or in their relationships can retreat further into an ideology which reassures them that it's not their fault, it's merely the state of the world. As I said, this is hardly the majority, but I'd again wager that people like this form the majority of the keyboard warriors on a variety of platforms who espouse these values.

So don't worry if people call you an incel or whatever, you claim you aren't and that's important. Don't despair on finding someone either - I got lucky enough to. You will as well, no doubt. Just don't compromise yourself, and be patient.
 

Evelyn

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"My advice: Therapy." is a really arrogant and insensitive thing to say, without any regard to what assistance should the actual person need. It really shows your stance on things: "if you don't think and behave like me, you need a doctor." Don't do that, it makes you look like a horrible person.
The point of therapy is that it allows a person to figure out what help it is that they need. If your issues are to the point where you feel like you wouldn't be a good husband or boyfriend or anything, that is definitely something that you should see a professional for, to work that out and hopefully resolve that. Believe it or not, seeing a therapist is not a bad thing, or an insult. Suggesting that a person might benefit from seeing a doctor is not an insult. But, of course, your usual one-dimensional thinking has typecasted my reply already without paying attention to what it is I actually said. No, you inferred malice that did not exist, and are using it to try to further a baseless personal attack on me.
 

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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there is literally nothing wrong with suggesting someone see a therapist. it can be very helpful for even minor things and can occasionally help you figure stuff out in ways you can't manage by yourself.
 

Vermillion_Hawk

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While I take issue with the notion of seeing a therapist and firmly believe one should be able to work one's issues out alone or, better yet, for free with friends, even assuming that I thought it was a viable option in this situation, it's still a level of condescension I wouldn't dream of to repeatedly suggest someone needs mental help in lieu of addressing the things they are saying.
 

Evelyn

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Oh, so you didn't actually read my post, and missed the part where the therapy comment was in regards to very certain, specific feelings he expressed, got it.
 

rektasaurus

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I mean, okay, sure, perhaps a therapist would help me unpack my feelings on why I don’t think I would be a good boyfriend or husband. But I imagine the conversation would go something like:

Therapist: but y
Me: because the way I would handle disagreement is to either acquiesce or simply walk away. I don’t care what color to paint the living room walls, I no longer have the energy to play a psycho-political game in matters of, say, raising kids
Therapist: *begins to analyze my thoughts on raising kids, barely beginning to broach a brand new topic before the 40 minutes is up*

I don’t know if I have unhealthy thoughts of men or women. I perhaps do have unhealthy thoughts about myself, and a very large part of why I don’t feel represented by the feminist movement is that I know if I had been a women it would’ve been absolutely far easier to get some kind of support. And in all honesty, I think much less about myself and my personal sob story than about the young men growing up.

I have an excellent real life example of a different family, events occurring just before covid, certainly not the only dynamic but more common than is thought. There’s a kid with a foreign name. He’s being bullied, teased, and constantly harassed at school. Due to reasons, he cracks at some point and punches one of his tormentors at school. He is then targeted as a bully by the staff. The dad legit legally changes his name and puts him into a new school. Now the dad is seen as and is sensitive to being seen as the abusive element in the household and a driver of toxic masculinity. The reality is that the mom is the one applying, by modern western standards, extreme psychological pressure. The dad has his own issues but is mostly removed. Without having an inside look into this family’s life, there is no way for the faculty to know how to approach educating this young boy, and they will be and are applying a remedy that is wholly inappropriate. How is this young boy to react but retreat into a shell and suppress his emotions, at once being understanding of his family and those around him without necessarily receiving the same understanding in return, at an age when he shouldn’t be thinking about anything but how to do arithmetic and play with a ball.

They also have a younger daughter. The daughter is confident, outgoing, assertive, and altogether very happy and healthy. She doesn’t live with the same circumstances as the boy because common wisdom is that she, and the women in her life, are oppressed and that they are brave for facing and overcoming that oppression.

The reality is not only different, but that young boy is going to have a hell of time proving that he isn’t a war criminal, a terrorist, or a sexist, and he’ll be reminded that he should be thankful because in other parts of the world, boys his age are being given drugs and guns by religious fanatics and sent to die. How would this boy react to the feminist movement after being told that he has privilege except to suppress his own feelings and say “yes, women face systemic discrimination which I have the privilege not to experience and they deserve equal rights. I am represented by feminism so I am a feminist”.

I just imagine what the response would be like if he tried to talk about his own experiences without being a female or a member of the lgbt community.

In all of my readings I have never once seen anything that would blame this situation on anything other than toxic masculinity, the furthest going would be that some women also perpetuate toxic masculinity. Inherent to the verbiage there is a divide, blaming the masculine, and celebrating the feminine, and I think this binary viewpoint is an issue which I can’t resolve in my brain nor easily speak about.
 

Bromden

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Suggesting that a person might benefit from seeing a doctor is not an insult.
Your hostile tone and your high horse made it clear from the beginning that you mean "My advice: Therapy" as "You are an idiot". It's pretty obvious, but nice attempt at sugarcoating it. The malice or hostility doesn't disappear just because you claim after that there wasn't any.
 

Evelyn

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The suggestion of therapy was genuine, not because he's an idiot - regardless of what I think of his wisdom on this particular matter - but because those specific things I said that in response to are very serious matters as far as mental health and happiness goes. I would say that to anyone who expressed such a feeling, not just him. Again, clearly, you did not seek to understand what I wrote, and simply created an idea of what you wanted me to have said, regardless of the fact that they don't match in the slightest. Far off-mark, as usual, but you're welcome to believe what you'd like.
 

Bromden

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Genuine, helpful suggestions usually don't follow a thick paragraph of bashing someone who you clearly dislike and don't hold for much. If you held his mental state in any actual concern, then you woldn't kick him for five minutes and then fart a three word solution in his face. It's a bit transparent.
 

Ikea Knight

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groups have been actively working to make "feminist" a dirty word
I absolutly agree and after reading the last couple of pages on this thread, I think that's one of major difficulties of this discussion.

I'd like to start with a couple of quotes by the Dalai Lama spuken at the 4th Mena Annual Women's Healths Congress as spoken in Dubai, September 2018:

"Do not compare yourself to others. If you do, you insult yourself"
"If want to shine like the sun, first you have to burn like it"
"Women are the backbone of each family, community and country"
"Even the frailest women can become a heroine."

I personally love these because these are words of self-enpowerenment withour necessarily putting yourself above others.

On the Internet there are so many storys and videos of "feminazis" and "Karens" pushing their own agenda and discriminating other women and men alike.

My female friends and family have vastly different views on feminism than these Internet personas.

For some LGBTQ-acception is an important part of their views on feminism.
For some men-empowerenment is part of it aswell.
For some it's only about women.
But for all of them equality is important.

I, so far, haven't met a single person personally, that acts like one of those super aggressive persons you see on 4chan, reddit and 9gag every day.

And that's where I'd like to go back to Kentucky James VII's statement I started out with.

Thanks to the Internet it is super easy to spread opinions and facts but also misinformation and lies.

I hope that some of you fell for the Dalai Lama quotes in the beginning, because these quotes seem to be partially by hitler and partially by me.

Radical feminists do exist. But I think, thanks to our media, we get the impressionen that they are everywhere and that "they" are the enemy.

But in actuallity I haven't met such a person yet.
I think people have to fact check more and use their common sense.
If I haven't met a single extremist in my whole life, chances are, there aren't that many all together.


Women habe been on the short end of things for the last centuries.
I think it's bad taste to complain that they want to be treated more equally now.
 

rektasaurus

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@Bromden @Evelyn You two don’t have to argue on my behalf, though I do appreciate your efforts, Bromden. I’m not new to being vilified, even when I don’t deserve it, and I don’t take it personally.

To be fair, telling me that I sound like a stereotypical incel who’s been getting misinformation from spending too much time in places I haven’t been and that I’d benefit from therapy really didn’t come across to me like genuine advice to seek relief from any psychic pain but rather advice to seek professional help to fix my unhealthy, unwise, and incorrect views of men and women.

Idk maybe next time I meet an asexual gender non-conforming attack helicopter I’ll remind them that they need therapy to fix their unhealthy views of men and women and I’ll see how that goes /s

Literally anyone could benefit from therapy. Telling me I need it in like 5 different places is just... I get it, you disagree with me, but I’m not your enemy.

Women habe been on the short end of things for the last centuries.
I think it's bad taste to complain that they want to be treated more equally now.
I'm not just an internet persona complaining that women want to be treated equally...

" ...is feminism by nature of its name and purpose a discriminating ideology? " was the question in OP. I'm saying that by nature of its name it is discriminatory, although its intention and purpose is absolutely not discriminatory. And I detailed a bunch of things that I've experienced which, to summarize, is like


**** it doesn't even matter