Feminism

[Úlfheðinn]

No, you apparently don't understand why it was useful to provide a thread where people can discuss something that came up, so that another one isn't derailed and can continue to serve its purpose.

If we ignore your "fitting" meme spam, there has actually been some relevant discussion. 

 

[RalliX]

Might as well get started by stating my views: I'm all for feminism as far as (i) equality of opportunities, (ii) condemnation of rape culture, harmful stereotypes and unreasonable societal expectation, and (iii) promoting equality in relationships. The moment it crosses the border into female supremacy and crap like that, I put on my great helmet, don my red coat of plate, mount my heavy charger, wield my Sarleon banner and go lance-happy.

Für den König!

 

[Argeus the Paladin]

The meme is quite fitting since this thread is nothing but whine from guys that don't understand feminism.

I refer you to Orion's signature.

 

[kurczak]

I obviously didn't read the whole thing, just watched the video where she describes the situation. So, she's on some sexism or whatever conference where she holds a speech how annoying and tiresome it is to get hit on and then gets hit on by one of the participants? Seems to me like she just can't take a joke. Which is especially funny considering that in the very same video she makes fun of people who get upset at jokes they don't get.

Wy u do dis? Stahp. Plz. 

Hehe

I mean I didn't read what Dawkins wrote about the chick, or what A wrote about what Dawkins wrote about her or what B wrote about what A wrote about what Dawkins wrote about her. I was interested in what actually happened to her and since I don't need Dawkins' running commentary for that, so I just watched that video of hers. Honestly I don't see what the big deal is. She doesn't seem even really upset, she just says she felt uncomfortable. I mean, how did this escalate into a thing? Why didn't it go like this: "So a guy asks me out in an elevator at 4 AM, creepy rite?" - "Inorite, what was he thinking? Sheesh, talk about poor timing." The end.

I just don't see how it warrants a wiki article...there's obviously a lot to seriously talk about the role of women in the Western society, but this is not it.

 

[Jhessail]

The wiki article is about her in general, the "elevatorgate" is just one paragraph.

I mean, how did this escalate into a thing? Why didn't it go like this: "So a guy asks me out in an elevator at 4 AM, creepy rite?" - "Inorite, what was he thinking? Sheesh, talk about poor timing." The end.

Exactly because there were enough commentators who didn't feel that way, that thought that just because she felt uneasy about the whole thing and dared to blog about it, meant that she

claim he was a raging misogynistic rapey ****nugget

and then the whole thing blew up like only Internet drama can. There's no point in burning Dawkins entire book collection because he made one stupid comment - or even if he really is a misogynistic bastard, his work on biology and for atheism is still brilliant.



Anyway, for Kevlar and others in need of SERIOUS ISSUES OF GRAVE CONCERN, have no fear, here's plenty of good stuff to read:
http://www.turkishpolicy.com/category/current_issue/

I would especially like to point you towards the one article about Syria.



Oh and this might be of interest to some:
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2012.pdf

Spoiler

TOP TEN:
1. Iceland
2. Finland
3. Norway
4. Sweden
5. Ireland
6. New Zealand
7. Denmark
8. Philippines
9. Nicaragua
10. Switzerland

TEN WORST:

126. Egypt
127. Iran
128. Mali
129. Morocco
130. Ivory Coast
131. Saudi Arabia
132. Syria
133. Chad
134. Pakistan
135. Yemen

USA is number 22.

 

[Merlkir]

Oh yes, there's hidden (sic!) misogyny everywhere. Gotta find more and more every day, otherwise people might forget feminists exist. Also, Atheism+ would be so funny, if it weren't so ridiculously sad.

Reading feminists blogs (which I do from time to time, it makes me wanna work out for some reason) I always wonder. How do these people justify to themselves this ****ed up trend of spreading fear and victim mentality?
On one hand, feminism claims to be about empowering women, about making them strong and equal to men. On the other hand, it's constantly telling them they're going to get raped eventually, that every man they meet is a potential rapist and that they should be on guard. That it's not about how they dress or what they choose to do. The rape is always the fault of the rapist. But hey, you will probably get raped, because we live in a rape culture.

Every single article with a trigger warning I read contains descriptions of fear and anxiety the author felt, when a guy "cornered" her at a con (in an open corridor) and (! *gasp*) dared to touch her arm without permission! What a ****ing rapist. She was obviously paralyzed, because she knew he was going to rape her. Only the fact there were other people around saved her.

Obviously, we need to set up a behaviour code, right? We need to tell our atheist guys not to rape. We need to raise awareness of this nonexistent threat of atheist con rape and sexual assault. We need to hold talks and tell guys how they should not behave in elevators, especially how they shouldn't ask women if they wanted to have coffee. It might offend them.

Somehow, these people forget that there are already laws which deal with assault, rape and other crimes. Somehow they forget that offending someone is not illegal and that people get offended about absolutely everything these days.

Thank ****ing god for people with sense, like Dawkins, or Thunderf00t. For every brainwashed P.Z.Myers, there seems to be at least one TAA.
If feminism was actually about equality of rights, I'd be a feminist. But it very painfully obviously isn't. And no, it's not guilt by association, it's not bundling all feminists in with the radfems. If you believe in The Big Bad Patriarchy, if you believe in the pay gap conspiracy, if you think Anita Sarkeesian is wicked awesome, you're right in that Feminist bag of joy.

inb4 "you misogynist pig!"

 

[Seff]

I don't care if a woman wears a giant sign around her neck saying '**** me now' and nothing else, rape is still the fault of the rapist. How the **** can you think otherwise? Are you really saying that a girl who dresses provocatively shouldn't have the right to say no if a guy wants to have sex with her? I can understand why guys assume they have better chances with girls in miniskirts and tight tops than with girls in more conservative clothing, but that doesn't change that sex has to be consensual.

Anxiety is anxiety, it happens in other areas than between men and women, and is pretty much by definition irrational, so there's no reasoning with people that suffer from it.

 

[rebelsquirrell]

I don't care if a woman wears a giant sign around her neck saying '**** me now' and nothing else, rape is still the fault of the rapist. How the **** can you think otherwise? Are you really saying that a girl who dresses provocatively shouldn't have the right to say no if a guy wants to have sex with her? I can understand why guys assume they have better chances with girls in miniskirts and tight tops than with girls in more conservative clothing, but that doesn't change that sex has to be consensual.

Anxiety is anxiety, it happens in other areas than between men and women, and is pretty much by definition irrational, so there's no reasoning with people that suffer from it.

"That it's not about how they dress or what they choose to do."

If they get drunk and choose to have sex is probably what is meant there.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Swear word filter? 

Sorry, I am drinking, vodka for everyone! If you can make it to Austria that is.

 

[Merlkir]

That. If I decided to go home through certain neighbourhoods late at night, after a night of drinking with friends, I should suspect there's a good chance of getting a beating, or even just getting mugged. It's totally the fault of the mugger. But they don't care. I should care about my well being, I should've considered going in a group, or avoiding those neighbourhoods.

Anyone who brings that up gets **** for victim blaming. Sometimes it is that. Yeah, talking about revealing tops and ****, that's dumb. But come on, there's personal resposibility, we've talked about this in the rape thread. If you're being told you're not able to make decisions while drunk, therefore it's rape...etc.etc...that's demeaning, a victim mentality. And feminism apparently thinks women should agree with that.

 

[Bromden]

Sorry, I am drinking, vodka for everyone! If you can make it to Austria that is.

*drops everything and rushes to the train station

 

[Seff]

That. If I decided to go home through certain neighbourhoods late at night, after a night of drinking with friends, I should suspect there's a good chance of getting a beating, or even just getting mugged. It's totally the fault of the mugger. But they don't care. I should care about my well being, I should've considered going in a group, or avoiding those neighbourhoods.

True. That such neighborhoods and such men shouldn't exist is another matter.

I still don't think girls were 'asking for it' if they dressed provocatively, though.

 

[Merlkir]

I don't know how much that matters tbh. I suppose it may be a way to rationalize the rape by some rapists, seeing how some rape apologists (omg can't believe I'm using that un-ironically) do just that. Hurr durr, maaybe he just liked her in that revealing dress and thought she'd go for it?

I wonder if there's some kind of research about how clothing influences choice by rapists. Somehow I think it might not be that important.

edit: Not exactly a scientific journal, but hey.

http://broadblogs.com/2011/09/26/does-provocative-dress-ever-cause-rape/

Sociologists who have interviewed rapists, read their accounts and looked at the circumstances of their crimes have learned that they have a variety of motives. Here are a few:

Some rape to feel powerful, others gang rape to demonstrate their “manhood” (defined as powerful, dominant, violent, virile, and not gay) to each other and fraternally bond, some become aroused by sadistically bringing sex and violence together, others seek to harm an entire race, community or nation by using sexual assault as a political weapon, still others seek revenge against someone other than the rape victim. And some misread cues.

 

[Baguette Eater]

I'm never drunk, does that mean I'm not allowed to post in this thread?

Might as well get started by stating my views: I'm all for feminism as far as (i) equality of opportunities, (ii) condemnation of rape culture, harmful stereotypes and unreasonable societal expectation, and (iii) promoting equality in relationships. The moment it crosses the border into female supremacy and crap like that, I put on my great helmet, don my red coat of plate, mount my heavy charger, wield my Sarleon banner and go lance-happy.

In a nutshell, but I bring a Ruby Strange Sword some gauntlets, a pair of boots and a shield as well.

 

[Seff]

Ah, I thought you saw it as an excuse to rape, Merlkir, thus the "are you serious?" comments. My bad.

 

[FrisianDude]

Für den König!

?!?!/!!1?!!!

 

[Merlkir]

Ah, I thought you saw it as an excuse to rape, Merlkir, thus the "are you serious?" comments. My bad.

Nah, nah. I just see it way too often as a beatdown argument when anyone brings up self-responsibility. A bit of a strawman sometimes. I mean, ridiculously, there are still people around who'd talk about short skirts and cleavage, sure. But feminists (like any other ideology really) have patterns of responses they go to when they hear specific keywords in a discussion, or if they think they recognize the opposition's argument as a misogynist classic. And "oh now you're victim shaming/blaming" is one of those.

 

[Hanz]

No, you apparently don't understand why it was useful to provide a thread where people can discuss something that came up, so that another one isn't derailed and can continue to serve its purpose.

If we ignore your "fitting" meme spam, there has actually been some relevant discussion. 

One meme=Spam...

Well I see how you reason 

 

[Seff]

Yeah, all of male TW had that thrown in its face in the rape thread.

 

[rebelsquirrell]

Please drop the pointless meme discussion *puppy eyes*