Why is this thread still happening when we clearly see that feinting is still in the game and have no other idea about how it will change due to LAN, combat speed, infantry stats, FPS etc?
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Feinting - pls give
- 主题发起人 SeánC
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Well my bad on the arbitrary assumption I made there, I guess mistakes come with being human. Not sure how that untruthful remark of mine was supposed to support my argument tho.Varrak 说:I am actually pretty interested in MP, more than SP. That is why i opened "Multiplayer Discussion Thread" in first place, after telling Stretikos that "Singleplayer and Multiplayer threads should be divided", since i think MP has to have special own place in the forum.Grey_Warden 说:
It is always quite hilarious btw when people who clearly do not know other person but blame him as "not interested in MP" in order to show his argument true and other guy's one is false. So childish.
Grey_Warden 说:
That was literally what i said and that is why i supported feinting's existence in bannerlord.. Are you even literate?
Hoooooowever.
By saying this you seem pretty convinced that click-click-click-release is all there is to feinting in Warband, which was the whole point of my post, to prove you wrong. What concerns feints in Bannerlord, you can refer to my previous posts on the issue and perhaps actually address them, same goes for the whole "not being able to block feints" nonsense.Varrak 说:
I was being polite there, actually. I wouldn't even call that thing in warband as "feinting" in first place, as it would be an insult to real feinting lol. What we see in warband is ridiculous broken animation.Grey_Warden 说:
Just because i support Feinting in Bannerlord doesn't mean i support that weird thing meant to be called "feinting" in warband
Actually i did not claim this, you can pretty much use feinting to block or even take further advantage against an enemy who is feinting against you (I didn't write this as well). This truth has been spoken by mr SeánCGrey_Warden 说:
which is a truth.SeánC 说:
Feinting in Warband actually laid a new lath on the competitive level, even though it was a bug and it was never intended to work this way, it did happen and it actually turned out to be a somehow "nice" coincidence of coincidences. No matter what you'll say, any player that is actually interested in getting somewhat good and competitive has to learn blocking, feinting (with that comes holding and other techniques I won't mention here), footwork and then more tactical things (if we talk about team competitions) like target picking, environmental benefiting etcetera..
That being said, I do not see a problem in changing how the feints work, since the Warband feinting was a coincidence that is clearly a bug. But I do not feel, that limiting feints to the level they are shown in the Purzel's video is the right way to go, hence it would basically be no feinting at all, any player with few dozens of hours could easily block feinted attacks this way. It would make a smaller gap between the new and experienced players - Warband is known with its fighting complexity that not even some people with thousands of hours can observe and master, making Bannerlord a hell of an easy game for new MP players certainly isn't the way. I am aware of some of the new mechanics that should and may come to the Bannerlord, but still, do not remove or limit the feinting the way it is done in the video, it's somewhat realistic, but games are not supposed to be realistic.
That being said, I do not see a problem in changing how the feints work, since the Warband feinting was a coincidence that is clearly a bug. But I do not feel, that limiting feints to the level they are shown in the Purzel's video is the right way to go, hence it would basically be no feinting at all, any player with few dozens of hours could easily block feinted attacks this way. It would make a smaller gap between the new and experienced players - Warband is known with its fighting complexity that not even some people with thousands of hours can observe and master, making Bannerlord a hell of an easy game for new MP players certainly isn't the way. I am aware of some of the new mechanics that should and may come to the Bannerlord, but still, do not remove or limit the feinting the way it is done in the video, it's somewhat realistic, but games are not supposed to be realistic.
Hmmmmm.Varrak 说:
By blocking I mean exactly that, blocking, not countering feints using other offensive techniques, which is indeed a viable tactic (pretty sure I've mentioned this myself at least a couple of times at this point). From what you're saying in the quote above it seems like you're claiming that feints in Warband cannot be countered by means of simple blocking and counterattacking afterwards, which is simply untrue. Sure, it's not the best way to counter feints, but saying that the way things stand a player is incapable of doing that if that suits his style is simply wrong. If that were the case, there would be no strong players in the game utilizing a defensive style due to (supposed) complete and utter dominance of feints over conventional defense, lol.Varrak 说:
P.S. Kern pretty much voiced my opinion on the whole thing, so +1 on that.
Grey_Warden 说:
I though my comment was pretty obvious, but you didn't read whole sentence or just ignored rest of it, where i wrote "and will have a chance in basic fighting techniques if he/she is skilled enough.". You can of course use regular blocking feature against that thing being called as "feinting" in warband, but it would be just "pissing on the fire". That is why i quoted SeánC's sentence, because his imitation would be pretty much enough for you to realise why i implied there.
the main strange thing in Warband imo were pretty much only the swadian twohanders. With the movement people do with those you'd cut your own head off IRL multiple times 5 seconds into the fight But if you look at a good duelist like M feinting with a spear, for example, to me that looks pretty fine, and other twohanders, as well as shield-onehander aren't much of a problem.
Basically OGL seems to be right, we don't know about a lot of stuff. As far as I could see, Peter was playing a pretty heavily armored guy who was pretty slow...I'd expect that the stats are different in 'normal' multiplayer than they are in this "bot-mode", in which you pretty much control a character who has the stats of a specific bot unit, that is supposed to have major advantages and disadvantages. For example, I don't expect that an Inf is that much slower than an Archer in Battle mode, that would really be a problem cause you couldn't catch up.
On the other hand Peter is a very good feinter and Purzel also is as an experienced infantry player, and they both felt like it's not in the game in a way it is in warband so yeah But we'll have to wait for some kind of MP-Beta (if that will come) to really judge the issue.
But if you look at a good duelist like M feinting with a spear, for example, to me that looks pretty fine, and other twohanders, as well as shield-onehander aren't much of a problem. Basically OGL seems to be right, we don't know about a lot of stuff. As far as I could see, Peter was playing a pretty heavily armored guy who was pretty slow...I'd expect that the stats are different in 'normal' multiplayer than they are in this "bot-mode", in which you pretty much control a character who has the stats of a specific bot unit, that is supposed to have major advantages and disadvantages. For example, I don't expect that an Inf is that much slower than an Archer in Battle mode, that would really be a problem cause you couldn't catch up.
On the other hand Peter is a very good feinter and Purzel also is as an experienced infantry player, and they both felt like it's not in the game in a way it is in warband so yeah
But we'll have to wait for some kind of MP-Beta (if that will come) to really judge the issue.Lol, as the person who taught the guy you're quoting how to play I can assure you that you're misinterpreting what he meant. What he actually meant is that blocking doesn't work unless you actually counterattack afterwards. Sure, if you just stand there blocking it's exactly that, pissing on fire, unless you're AE_Bloody Death, don't expect your opponent to die of exhaustion from feinting too much. x) But if you actually swing back after each block, I don't see a reason why you'd be disadvataged against a feinter as long as you know what you're doing. And each of those blocks preceding the counterattacks is PERFECTLY possible to pull off (you can ask Sean himself for clarification since you value his opinion so much), no matter how skilled the feinter is. This is what I meant, I can read quite well, thank you.Varrak 说:
Of course you can block enemy's attack and then counter attack your enemy, by using feinting, if not your enemy won't just stop feinting just because you attack him back but block you in feint and keep feint on you unless you are over. That is why you supposed to feint against feint, and that is what i meant (also what SeánC wrote) that you can pretty much use feinting against enemy's feint and oppress him.
Otherwise, you still have victory chance against a person who feints against you by not using feints, with a chance factor. I am not talking about chance factor here.
edit: Btw i am talking about Warband's so called "feinting" here, where i don't even recognise as feinting but a ridiculous broken animation. Real feinting would probably seen in Bannerlord where i support.
Otherwise, you still have victory chance against a person who feints against you by not using feints, with a chance factor. I am not talking about chance factor here.
edit: Btw i am talking about Warband's so called "feinting" here, where i don't even recognise as feinting but a ridiculous broken animation. Real feinting would probably seen in Bannerlord where i support.
Well, you're making it sound like that chance factor is extremely small, which it isn't if your blocking is at anywhere close to a decent level. Also the fact that you think feinting is the only means of stopping your opponent from feinting is rather ridiculous. There is also holding, spam, outreaching the final attack of the feint chain, kicking your opponent mid-feinting if he gets careless (not as likely, but viable nonetheless) and even chambering. Not a fan of the last option as it's easily blocked by a good player 9 times out of 10, but with good timing and tricky angles that can be a rather deadly counter blow. So don't make it seem like feinting is some broken technique that can only be countered by a technique equally broken, there are plenty of things you can do that take way less, as you say click-click-click. :dVarrak 说:
Don't bend my words if you will, alright? An inexperienced player has no chance of beating an expert no matter the tactics he's using, good or bad. There's a vast gap in the understanding of the game AND physical stuff like reaction time and muscle memory. So yes, I stand by what I said. The point is that players of relatively equal strength will remain equal even if one player uses a slightly passive hit-blocking style and the other feints like crazy, hell even feints above his supposed level of strength.Varrak 说:
Welp, thank god for the bannerlord forum so we can start scratching these old topics, so, so good. And now, rambling engaged!
For skill difference, I think there are two ways that a game can end up. I like to bring up magicka, wizard wars as an example of doing it wrong. In that game, you have to press 3 of 8 possible keys at once to get a spell out, you can cast as fast as you can press the buttons, so you are basically typing spells out at 90wpm if you are good. It is overwhelming for a new player. But if you give them an hour or two, they have a few spells they cast that they can do well and enjoy the game.
The big issue there was that player with 2 hours still would absolutely destroy a newbie. Therefore if I start the game even 3 hours too late, I have to basically die for a long while or pre train myself before I can even get a kill and enjoy the game. All the difficulty was front loaded, making a barrier that sent people away just as fast as they arrived.
Warband is nice that you can shoot someone with arrows or hit them with a lance and spam an attack in a crowd and get kills. This is really important for the health of any game. I have to get in, today, amongst a skilled population, with no experience, and I need to get a few kills, or I'm never coming back and booting up single player instead.
What is nice with warband was I always felt there was that amazing skill gap. I used to look at even just a TDM game and see the score board and you have this sort of 'gods and men' thing, where the top like 4 players are like 50 and 2 and below him is 25 and 10 and the scores are all mixed in. If you spectate those guys you see every action and movement of their character is making a kill or pressing towards one with no hesitation, while the mid level guys played 'normal'.
Years into the game there usually was about 4 out of 60 players that were 'god tier', with most falling in the middle somewhere. This is a really good thing, it means that I can have not touched the game for 3 years, jump in a match, and still play middle of the road. It also proves that getting to that level just doesn't happen with time at all, it takes work.
Also lets think about has feinting has evolved over time. At first you really could just change your direction and people couldn't block it. Some people went into great detail about which directions you were using, like up, right sort of fudging your arm animation and things. I sort of gave up on that and just went with timing because I couldn't do anything like that. I remember trying out doing the thrust looks like a swing thing but could never do it despite trying for a week or two at one point.
I'm not trying to toot my horn here saying this but, at least in NA (where there was not a heavy dueling scene early on) I think playing with neih and I we started doing those hyper feints really early, I never saw anyone else trying it. First thing I did to respond to it was just attack into it randomly because I couldn't defend from it. Then later I'd attack into it with good timing waiting for the weapon to be out of place.
After a while neih got it down so he could defend while keeping the weapon going coo coo and it started to make us hate playing the game. Starting to do the beginning of the stuff gray warden was talking about that they have perfected at this point. But for me this was the moment I started to give up on dueling because I saw it as where it had to go to keep up with the growing skill level. We even both stopped doing those kind of feints (we used to call it star wars kid style) because we just hated it so much and didn't want to work on it at all.
So this discussion about feinting has always been there. I think it is a non issue to discuss feinting in the form of altering the direction of the swing you are chambering and instead to discuss the stuff gray warden mentioned like the really specific movements from a trained player.
So by nature it is alright that only a few people are going to do this stuff and do it correctly, but what happens is the greater population imitates it and is constantly trying to do it so the game just looks and feels like garbage.
But yes, completely removing the ability to be tricky is frightening as well. The worst thing is to get to a place where you can't create offensive pressure at all so both skilled players will do nothing.
I don't know I feel like warband's combat is like this trap. The things you do to make it have variety fundamentally breaks down the direction based blocking. Say you start going more fighting game and adding in various attacks with different speeds and damages so you have some footies play, pokes and the like. Well if the attack is not clearly coming in from the left then you cant intuitively block it and it feels wrong so now all your attacks have to start on those cardinal directions. At the end of the day you are stuck with 4 attack directions.
There could be a greater variety in timing but then you get into the issue of spamming. If you can attack faster than a weapon can counter the game breaks also. Think of all the times you catch a guy with a shield and spear while you have a 2 hander out, that person can do nothing but die unless they figure out how to get out of your swing range or drop their shield. So now all weapons have an attack window they have to conform to.
My friend at work had an interesting idea when I was talking about it with him and that was reducing the damage from an attack that was overly feinted. Like say you did 3 swing/right clicks in a row very quickly then the damage would start going down with each additional right click. This way you keep the fact that the block animation has to snap to quickly and leave in some of the BS fast movements, but they won't be very rewarding if done to excess.
It still doesn't answer the question of what do you get in its place.
The OTHER thing to think about obviously is multi fighting. Warband obviously isn't all about dueling, so you have to think about 4 on 2's or other things. It's true that coordinated people can really take down someone by efficient use of the regular old swing system, so adding some obvious defensive break will become over powered in regular fighting situations, as is evident in for honor, you end up having the one person spam guard break over and over again when fighting someone out numbered.
Also I guess a parting comment on the skill of cav and archers, there is still a **** load of room for growth. Some of those cav players that have gone above and beyond are just magic, pure magic at the damn thing, mobile death factories that never miss a hit and are at the right spot at the right time and suddenly gone and coming at you from another odd angle. I've never gotten anywhere near close to what some of those players can do. Same with hitting some of those insane snap archer shots too.
For skill difference, I think there are two ways that a game can end up. I like to bring up magicka, wizard wars as an example of doing it wrong. In that game, you have to press 3 of 8 possible keys at once to get a spell out, you can cast as fast as you can press the buttons, so you are basically typing spells out at 90wpm if you are good. It is overwhelming for a new player. But if you give them an hour or two, they have a few spells they cast that they can do well and enjoy the game.
The big issue there was that player with 2 hours still would absolutely destroy a newbie. Therefore if I start the game even 3 hours too late, I have to basically die for a long while or pre train myself before I can even get a kill and enjoy the game. All the difficulty was front loaded, making a barrier that sent people away just as fast as they arrived.
Warband is nice that you can shoot someone with arrows or hit them with a lance and spam an attack in a crowd and get kills. This is really important for the health of any game. I have to get in, today, amongst a skilled population, with no experience, and I need to get a few kills, or I'm never coming back and booting up single player instead.
What is nice with warband was I always felt there was that amazing skill gap. I used to look at even just a TDM game and see the score board and you have this sort of 'gods and men' thing, where the top like 4 players are like 50 and 2 and below him is 25 and 10 and the scores are all mixed in. If you spectate those guys you see every action and movement of their character is making a kill or pressing towards one with no hesitation, while the mid level guys played 'normal'.
Years into the game there usually was about 4 out of 60 players that were 'god tier', with most falling in the middle somewhere. This is a really good thing, it means that I can have not touched the game for 3 years, jump in a match, and still play middle of the road. It also proves that getting to that level just doesn't happen with time at all, it takes work.
Also lets think about has feinting has evolved over time. At first you really could just change your direction and people couldn't block it. Some people went into great detail about which directions you were using, like up, right sort of fudging your arm animation and things. I sort of gave up on that and just went with timing because I couldn't do anything like that. I remember trying out doing the thrust looks like a swing thing but could never do it despite trying for a week or two at one point.
I'm not trying to toot my horn here saying this but, at least in NA (where there was not a heavy dueling scene early on) I think playing with neih and I we started doing those hyper feints really early, I never saw anyone else trying it. First thing I did to respond to it was just attack into it randomly because I couldn't defend from it. Then later I'd attack into it with good timing waiting for the weapon to be out of place.
After a while neih got it down so he could defend while keeping the weapon going coo coo and it started to make us hate playing the game. Starting to do the beginning of the stuff gray warden was talking about that they have perfected at this point. But for me this was the moment I started to give up on dueling because I saw it as where it had to go to keep up with the growing skill level. We even both stopped doing those kind of feints (we used to call it star wars kid style) because we just hated it so much and didn't want to work on it at all.
So this discussion about feinting has always been there. I think it is a non issue to discuss feinting in the form of altering the direction of the swing you are chambering and instead to discuss the stuff gray warden mentioned like the really specific movements from a trained player.
So by nature it is alright that only a few people are going to do this stuff and do it correctly, but what happens is the greater population imitates it and is constantly trying to do it so the game just looks and feels like garbage.
But yes, completely removing the ability to be tricky is frightening as well. The worst thing is to get to a place where you can't create offensive pressure at all so both skilled players will do nothing.
I don't know I feel like warband's combat is like this trap. The things you do to make it have variety fundamentally breaks down the direction based blocking. Say you start going more fighting game and adding in various attacks with different speeds and damages so you have some footies play, pokes and the like. Well if the attack is not clearly coming in from the left then you cant intuitively block it and it feels wrong so now all your attacks have to start on those cardinal directions. At the end of the day you are stuck with 4 attack directions.
There could be a greater variety in timing but then you get into the issue of spamming. If you can attack faster than a weapon can counter the game breaks also. Think of all the times you catch a guy with a shield and spear while you have a 2 hander out, that person can do nothing but die unless they figure out how to get out of your swing range or drop their shield. So now all weapons have an attack window they have to conform to.
My friend at work had an interesting idea when I was talking about it with him and that was reducing the damage from an attack that was overly feinted. Like say you did 3 swing/right clicks in a row very quickly then the damage would start going down with each additional right click. This way you keep the fact that the block animation has to snap to quickly and leave in some of the BS fast movements, but they won't be very rewarding if done to excess.
It still doesn't answer the question of what do you get in its place.
The OTHER thing to think about obviously is multi fighting. Warband obviously isn't all about dueling, so you have to think about 4 on 2's or other things. It's true that coordinated people can really take down someone by efficient use of the regular old swing system, so adding some obvious defensive break will become over powered in regular fighting situations, as is evident in for honor, you end up having the one person spam guard break over and over again when fighting someone out numbered.
Also I guess a parting comment on the skill of cav and archers, there is still a **** load of room for growth. Some of those cav players that have gone above and beyond are just magic, pure magic at the damn thing, mobile death factories that never miss a hit and are at the right spot at the right time and suddenly gone and coming at you from another odd angle. I've never gotten anywhere near close to what some of those players can do. Same with hitting some of those insane snap archer shots too.
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