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Feinting - pls give
- 主题发起人 SeánC
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Honestly what you're suggesting is exactly that, nulifying the learning curve. A player with 200 hours isn't supposed to stand a chance against a player who has been playing the game for 4000 same as a guy who started playing chess a year ago not holding a candle to a National Master or a player with 1000 hours on CS:GO getting annihilated by an e-sport class player. I mean if you're not willing to face people with that much dedication to the game...then don't? There are way more servers that cater mostly to casual players than to the elite kids. Hell, I can count the public servers populated by elite kids on my one hand, let's go. The Ludus, IG_Battlegrounds...That's it lol. There are of course private tournament\clan servers too, but you have no business meddling in those in the first place unless you're part of whatever\whoever they belong to. So yeah, it's beyond me how a steep learning curve is going to make the MP experience any worse for anyone. The dedicated revel in clashes of skills honed by years of practice and those not willing to put the time in enjoy the basics of the combat system which are fairly easy to grasp and everyone's happy. Or is there something I'm missing?The Bowman 说:
Not supposed to stand a chance? Then something is very wrong here, and CS: GO is a pretty bad example, since people do actually stand a chance, albeit with a lower rate of success against the more experienced players. If you play more though, you can increase your rate of success against the other players without losing the last brain cells or avoiding the game altogether. At some point you'll get better, and my idea is exactly about how long and what exactly takes to get better. By and large, that's one problem we get with very experienced players in Warband fighting the other players: they know the others can do little to counter them.
I sincerely think that you can get skilled without exploiting the core mechanics of the game, such as poorly animated moves or ultra-fast lolfeints. Instead, let's have something that doesn't look like a bug, still takes skill to learn, be understood to some degree (you don't want the newcomer to think there's a hacker coming at him) and involves some beauty and ellegance.
I sincerely think that you can get skilled without exploiting the core mechanics of the game, such as poorly animated moves or ultra-fast lolfeints. Instead, let's have something that doesn't look like a bug, still takes skill to learn, be understood to some degree (you don't want the newcomer to think there's a hacker coming at him) and involves some beauty and ellegance.
No fainting. Man up.
Feints work great against feints, if you just sit there and block them you're pissing on fire.The Bowman 说:
The Bowman 说:
A wise man speaks because he has something to say and a fool speaks because he has to say something. Don't post if you have nothing constructive.CaptainLee 说:
SeánC 说:
SeánC 说:
Sorry, you were saying? I can't hear you over your self-imposed silence on the debate. A wise man and all that.
Please don't loose your nonchalance though! We'd hate that.
Hey calm down guys, next step is killing each other
I still find this discussion so stupid. Either side supports keeping Feinting, and either side accept that implementation of feinting is ridiculous in Warband, and either side accept that feinting should not be removed, but implied different than Warband (as TW already did?)
So, why you are fighting for?
I still find this discussion so stupid. Either side supports keeping Feinting, and either side accept that implementation of feinting is ridiculous in Warband, and either side accept that feinting should not be removed, but implied different than Warband (as TW already did?)
So, why you are fighting for?
SeánC 说:
Arguing for no reason is childish, which you continued to do. Funny how that works.
That's exactly what you're doing. Stop **** postingCaptainLee 说:
Hey I am all for the implementation of something other than feinting as long as it serves the same purpose as feinting did but what you're implying is both sides living happily ever after, which isn't going to happen, I'd like both sides to be satisfied and I do think it could happen but it'll be difficult and it means making the right choices.Varrak 说:Hey calm down guys, next step is killing each other
I still find this discussion so stupid. Either side supports keeping Feinting, and either side accept that implementation of feinting is ridiculous in Warband, and either side accept that feinting should not be removed, but implied different than Warband (as TW already did?)
So, why you are fighting for?
SeánC 说:
I don't say this, of course some people would disagree with something for sure, let it be some skill or texture of something or some animation, there will always be some people who dislike something.
But i was talking about Feinting, it does still exist, and it implied different way than warband. It doesn't look like as ridiculous as Warband's one, also it seems more smooth and understandable, looks natural.
That is what i don't understand. You guys, both sides want this thing, which is already exist. I am not saying that "you both sides will be so happy about it", of course not. Maybe one person will say that "fienting should be slower", or someone else will say that "feinting should not be possible for Aserian troops" etc.
But overall, what we saw in Bannerlord looks working and millions of times better than warband's one. That is something you both agree.
Alright, let me address each point one by one to see if we maybe get somewhere. x_x
As for what it takes, not as much as it seems at first glance. All things seem somewhat confusing at first glance, but when you actually bother looking into how a particular thing works, in our case feints, you'll realize that there's no magic to it. Just a lot of hard work and ingeniousness. And even keeping that in mind, being proficient at feints may be somewhat difficult, but countering them is much easier. That transposes into my next point.
Hardly, in fact, it makes perfect sense. Vast difference in experience = vast difference in skill, hence, vast difference in the likelihood of victory. This is the essence of any somewhat competitive game and it's silly to deny it.
BINGO! See? We're on the same page here actually. But if you think my analogy is bad you're clearly underestimating the e-sports players lol. They spend hours upon hours practising what they do and end up with as much as 10k+ hours AND in addition to it, they are talented. If you think that your ordinary player with 1k hours and ordinary talent can overcome an e-sport class player in a SERIOUS competition (even I can get kills on e-sport players if they are just messing around lol), then you couldn't be more wrong. Yet again, sure, maybe there are some players that can do that, but that would just mean they are extremely talented themselves and are exceptions, not the rule.
I couldn't agree more! That brings me to my next point, there's a big difference between what I call "vast" difference in experience and simply "considerable". It's silly to expect a player who hardly wrapped their head around blocking to defeat a competitive duellist, however, if the opponent has 1000 hours and the player in question has 500 and he's determined on winning, there's an actual competition going on. Sure, it's quite likely that the more experienced player will win, but if he is to get careless, have a bad day or underestimate his opponent and these things happen even during serious competition then anything can happen. So woo, even a bit of effort pays off in Warband, you don't have to nolife the game for years to pose a threat even to some really strong players. But no one says you have to start out with those strong guys right away. Like I've already mentioned there are plenty of servers with people similar to your level of strength where you can get confident in your basics without getting depressed after being 10-0'd by Peter or something lol.
Yep, you will and as mentioned above there's no need to spend years on getting better to get on a decent level. Sure you won't be up there competing in stuff like BoB, but I don't see millions of chess players (since you don't like my CS:GO analogies) complaining about not being invited to GM level competitions lol.
As for what it takes, not as much as it seems at first glance. All things seem somewhat confusing at first glance, but when you actually bother looking into how a particular thing works, in our case feints, you'll realize that there's no magic to it. Just a lot of hard work and ingeniousness. And even keeping that in mind, being proficient at feints may be somewhat difficult, but countering them is much easier. That transposes into my next point.
No, no and no! Only people who don't even try to understand the technique say that. In reality, feinting, especially in the hands of non-top 20 level duellists (lol), is one large weak-spot. There are plenty of things even players without much skill to go for them can do to counter feints. 1) They can s key, which is what most of the newer players do anyway, and it works! You can feint all you want, but if your attack isn't going to land, then you're just exhausting yourself for no reason. 2) Feints are a weak spot in the first place because they open you up, so while it may seem a bit counterintuitive to a newer player, the best way to defend yourself against a feinter is to attack him while he's feinting. That, if your timing is right, will force the feinter to stop unless he wants a quick death. 3) When you get a bit more advanced you can start using holds and spam to put pressure on your enemy and prevent him from feinting in the first place, and when I say more advanced I don't mean 4000 hours advanced, but just confident in one's blocking and reaction time advanced.
I gotta say, I'm not a fan of what feinting is in Warband myself and would love a better alternative in terms of aesthetic appeal. But the way it was implemented in that Bannerlord gameplay we were shown was NOT the alternative, because it makes feinting practically irrelevant in terms of usefulness in competitive play, which brings me back to the post on priorities I previously made. I'll just quote it here.
SeanC 说:
I disagree, I think they're fixing it for everybody. It was a broken mechanic. And I think you mistakenly think whoever shares my opinion is on a crusade against you. I said what I said respectfuly, and I think its time to embrace the change instead of actually supporting a mechanic that drove many players away before and can be abused in many ways like macroing and by simply having low ping.
SeánC 说:
And that's why Warband's feinting is wrong. You're essentially saying that blocking (a vital pillar of the combat mechanics) is worthless, and therefore it isn't advised to use one of the main ways of defending yourself against such types of attacks. Then, we come to the conclusion that the most effective way to deal with it is to organize a clickfest to the point when you both can barely conceive and follow what happens with each other's weapons and train your middle finger muscles like it's gym day at the same time. That's really not the way I want to see a duel evolve.
Now, let me compare some other skill types in Warband, other than feinting:
Horse archery: I'm a good horse archer, hence my forum name, avatar and faction label. When I draw my bow, I take in account a multitude of factors, such as my speed and direction of movement relative to my opponent's, the time the arrow has to travel and the distance between me and him. Basically, I thoroughly learned the way missile trajectories work, and I can hit people while on horseback in ways that most people can't. Is that good skill? Yes. You need to understand some basics in physics and apply them to the game environment effectively, taking in account lots of factors. I'm not confusing my opponents to the point it's getting absurd. They simply know I'm good at shooting from difficult trajectories.
Lancing: This isn't the hardest thing to master, but it nevertheless involves quite some knowledge on reach of your weapon and the ones your opponents use. In spite of it being easy to learn, I've noticed that a good chunk of players still can't counter my attacks, but I'm pretty sure some of them will master it one day. Then again, the ones I kill know I'm good at timing and that I know my weapon and their weapon well.
Edit: What's more important about the two skills above is that you can import some of your knowledge from SP, without feeling that you're playing a totally different game.
Feinting (edit: in Warband): click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click-click release attack; huh, my finger hurts; click-click-click-click-click-click release attack. Sorry, but I care for the goodwill of my mouse.
The Bowman 说:
But it's feinting in warband.
Feinting in bannerlord : Click-Click-looks around-observes enemy's position and weapon-click-click-calculating his reaction-release attack.
Since Bannerlord's feinting is more smooth and it looks more natural, it also requires some skills after all.
And the other guy has a chance to repel attack by using blocking feature of his/her weapon/shield as well(unlike Warband's feinting), and will have a chance in basic fighting techniques if he/she is skilled enough.
Would be quite nice if you addressed some of the stuff I said instead of just repeating "broken" over and over again, but that's beside the point I suppose.578 说:
1) Macroing. That's pretty funny actually, because not a single top or good player I know for that matter (and I know practically all of them to some extent) uses macros to assist in their feinting, because it's inefficient. Manual feints give you way more control and make you less liable to getting countered by the tactics I mentioned in my post above.
2) Low Ping. Ok, cool, low ping has its benefits, but not nearly as many as you may have assumed. Being a duellist myself who has competed against both EU and NA players (regardless of the ping difference) I can say with certainty that it's all about the ping you're used to. And even when you're not used to higher pings, unless it goes over 75-80, it's not much of a handicap at all and with training up to 140-150 is perfectly playable, albeit starting at 100+ it does become a considerable disadvantage, but not critical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8ZmGumRS_w&t=169s The most well-known feinter in the game called Tobi had ping 70-80 most of the time as far as I remember and that didn't stop him from either being a beastly feinter or completely nulifying other people's attempts to kill him using feints. So the point is, with <75-80 ping as long as it doesn't fluctuate it all comes down to your skill and using your head in order to deal with a perfectly counterable technique.
P.S. Yes it is actually possible to simply block all the feints coming at you (it's already becoming a problem at the top level, the fact that it's TOO possible if you catch my drift xd), but I find that way not as efficient as some of the more offensive responses that even less experienced players can easily perform.
I've done nothing than simply disagree with you and your subordinates and I am tired of repeating myself. I am only one person stating my mind I am glad you disagree and there is nothing wrong with that it will help make bannerlord the game it was ment to be.578 说:
I a person with 1.5k have been advocating for the competitive community and maybe some of my points were false, I have also said already that I'd gladly have an implementation that replaces feinting if it serves the same purpose. Please address Grey's points above me also.The Bowman 说:
It's always quite hilarious btw when people who are clearly not that interested in the MP scene argue about MP techniques. I suppose the fact that simply click-click-click-etc-ing will get you killed in exactly 1 second against a good player doesn't mean anything to you. You know, watching your safety while you're feinting is not a factor AT ALL. I suppose knowing that you gotta choose a correct angle for your final attack in the feint chain in order to make it harder to block is also pretty irrelevant. Oh, and your positioning, right, who cares about that, attacks get into the right angles on their own, don't they? Oh and the fact that some feints work and some simply don't, how irrelevant! (try feinting the upper and lower attack all the time and see how many people you get killed, I'll tell you, at the very least 1 person, *wink-wink*). I would go on to say how feints are sometimes chained into other techniques like spam, kicks and so on and so forth, how feints sometimes are just instruments of putting pressure and not meant to be used for killing, but hey, you wouldn't listen, would you? They are just some broken animation. So click-click...click. ._.Varrak 说:
I am actually pretty interested in MP, more than SP. That is why i opened "Multiplayer Discussion Thread" in first place, after telling Stretikos that "Singleplayer and Multiplayer threads should be divided", since i think MP has to have special own place in the forum.Grey_Warden 说:
It is always quite hilarious btw when people who clearly do not know other person but blame him as "not interested in MP" in order to show his argument true and other guy's one is false. So childish.
Grey_Warden 说:
That was literally what i said and that is why i supported feinting's existence in bannerlord.. Are you even literate?
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