Feinting - pls give

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grimsight said:
Can an experienced player see themselves being fooled by the feints at 13:45? Doubt Peter was actually trying to feint fast, but regardless if that is the speed limit, it will be a useless mechanic

I was also playing the game with Peter and Purzel. I actually tried to feint fast and it wasn't as fast as in Warband at all. I would not have fooled myself and even the bots often didn't fall for the feints and they could just spam me to death. The transitions are also not as sharp as in Warband, but rather smooth. Hope there will be a change, at least for multiplayer cause the quality of your feint is normally a pretty good hint for your individual skill level. As you said, it rather seems to be useless. If there will be no change, the definition of a skilled player slightly changes.
 
grimsight said:
Can an experienced player see themselves being fooled by the feints at 13:45? Doubt Peter was actually trying to feint fast, but regardless if that is the speed limit, it will be a useless mechanic

From the looks of it feints have been nerfed to irrelevance. And I think that they are a melee key mechanic such as blocking, footwork or other stuff. I hope I'm just hyperventilating like everyone else here. Hopefully OGL is right, it might be the combat speed of the server or the infantry stats of the characters. Regardless of what happens I hope TW takes notices of this thread...
 
Please no feinting (in the way it is in Warband. It is very annoying, looks stupid and is not realistic.). People should be instead forced to learn for example chambering, kicking, jumping, camera work and foot work overall etc. to master their skills.
 
grimsight said:
if you're taking community questions
Questions I have for Callum:

- Are feints being slowed? If so will we have the option to increase combat speed on the server (like warband) to get the speed to previous levels? (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,369231.0.html)
- Can you explain some design goals for competitive? What is your process for balancing classes, item stats, etc?
- Reading the Bannerlord forums there is a clear divide between casuals (for lack of a better term for singleplayer/siege/tdm players) and competitive players, and the 2 sides have very different ideas on how combat should work. How do you plan on keeping both sides happy?
- Games are usually far from balanced on launch. Will TaleWorlds be looking for feedback from the competitive community for class and stat balancing?
I just want to bring this over to increase the chances of it being seen. All great questions.
 
grimsight said:
Can an experienced player see themselves being fooled by the feints at 13:45? Doubt Peter was actually trying to feint fast, but regardless if that is the speed limit, it will be a useless mechanic

With all due respect to the elite community, you need to understand that the game isn't developed just for a fraction of the player base. The main issue appears when you mix the larger pool of players, who either give up trying to achieve the level of skill the more experienced players have, or simply don't have the time to invest. You cannot simply ignore them solely for the interests of the 'l33t'-side of the community.
Does that mean the developers have to dumb the game down and nullify the learning curve? No, it should definitely exist; otherwise, the gameplay gets boring quickly, but the key detail here is how much do you stretch that learning curve to balance out the different types of players and make it realistically possible for the average players to learn how stand a chance against a very dedicated player in a given amount of time.

Edit: On server-side combat speed options. Sounds good, and they do exist in Warband, but the main issue is that the best servers are hosted mainly by experienced players, who undoubtedly choose the fastest option. I can hop into Warband MP right now and look for a server with slower combat speed, but go figure, they're quite depopulated, since the casuals don't really use to host servers.
 
I think the "combat speed" is another very weird anomaly in Warband. Why should we be able to change how fast things are happening?
 
The Bowman said:
With all due respect to the elite community, you need to understand that the game isn't developed just for a fraction of the player base. The main issue appears when you mix the larger pool of players, who either give up trying to achieve the level of skill the more experienced players have, or simply don't have the time to invest. You cannot simply ignore them solely for the interests of the 'l33t'-side of the community.
Does that mean the developers have to dumb the game down and nullify the learning curve?
Stop there, removing feinting would dumb down the game, extremely. And are you actually saying that having feinting in the game ruins the learning curve? One of the main ways to tell if a player is good or not is to see if they can block complex feints. And no it's not just for the "l33t" side of the community I think it is all in our best interest to not strip down Mount and Blades mechanics simply to make it more accessible to new players, that's the very essence of Warband! Easy to learn, difficult to master. I do understand where you are coming from that players can't invest the time into the game to get good but we can't remove a learning curve just for these players because that would be ludicrous, you cannot cease to not reward people who put in the hours to become better at the game than others then the game would become something like chivalry.
 
SeánC said:
Stop there, removing feinting would dumb down the game, extremely. And are you actually saying that having feinting in the game ruins the learning curve? One of the main ways to tell if a player is good or not is to see if they can block complex feints. And no it's not just for the "l33t" side of the community I think it is all in our best interest to not strip down Mount and Blades mechanics simply to make it more accessible to new players, that's the very essence of Warband! Easy to learn, difficult to master. I do understand where you are coming from that players can't invest the time into the game to get good but we can't remove a learning curve just for these players because that would be ludicrous, you cannot cease to not reward people who put in the hours to become better at the game than others then the game would become something like chivalry.

Chivalry? You mean that game where people abuse spins and absurd physics to hit the enemy, pretty much how Warband players abuse fast feints (which are more of a mistake than anything)? I think the two are quite similiar.
 
Gab-AG. said:
Chivalry? You mean that game where people abuse spins and absurd physics to hit the enemy, pretty much how Warband players abuse fast feints (which are more of a mistake than anything)? I think the two are quite similiar.
Yes but which game has been played by people for thousands of hours. They are simpler in the same way the moon and the earth are, they're both planets.
 
The Bowman said:
With all due respect to the elite community, you need to understand that the game isn't developed just for a fraction of the player base. The main issue appears when you mix the larger pool of players, who either give up trying to achieve the level of skill the more experienced players have, or simply don't have the time to invest. You cannot simply ignore them solely for the interests of the 'l33t'-side of the community.
Does that mean the developers have to dumb the game down and nullify the learning curve? No, it should definitely exist; otherwise, the gameplay gets boring quickly, but the key detail here is how much do you stretch that learning curve to balance out the different types of players and make it realistically possible for the average players to learn how stand a chance against a very dedicated player in a given amount of time.

But TW doesn't have to remove feinting for this. And it seems like they didn't remove it.

I don't understand why people want to whether remove it completely or keep it as it is in Warband. There is also a third option; implement it in a different way (like TW already did as it can be seen in the gameplay video)

I really don't get it the purpose of the fight here, don't see any reason.
 
grimsight said:
Can an experienced player see themselves being fooled by the feints at 13:45? Doubt Peter was actually trying to feint fast, but regardless if that is the speed limit, it will be a useless mechanic
 
SeánC said:
Gab-AG. said:
Chivalry? You mean that game where people abuse spins and absurd physics to hit the enemy, pretty much how Warband players abuse fast feints (which are more of a mistake than anything)? I think the two are quite similiar.
Yes but which game has been played by people for thousands of hours. They are simpler in the same way the moon and the earth are, they're both planets.

I was referring to the possible abuse of mechanics being similiar to Warband. I was not implying the games are similiar or comparable.
 
SeánC said:
The Bowman said:
With all due respect to the elite community, you need to understand that the game isn't developed just for a fraction of the player base. The main issue appears when you mix the larger pool of players, who either give up trying to achieve the level of skill the more experienced players have, or simply don't have the time to invest. You cannot simply ignore them solely for the interests of the 'l33t'-side of the community.
Does that mean the developers have to dumb the game down and nullify the learning curve?
Stop there, removing feinting would dumb down the game, extremely. And are you actually saying that having feinting in the game ruins the learning curve? One of the main ways to tell if a player is good or not is to see if they can block complex feints. And no it's not just for the "l33t" side of the community I think it is all in our best interest to not strip down Mount and Blades mechanics simply to make it more accessible to new players, that's the very essence of Warband! Easy to learn, difficult to master. I do understand where you are coming from that players can't invest the time into the game to get good but we can't remove a learning curve just for these players because that would be ludicrous, you cannot cease to not reward people who put in the hours to become better at the game than others then the game would become something like chivalry.


Feinting removal would take a huge part of the mindplay out of the game. But the pace of feinting possible in warband was and still is retarded. It needed to be slowed down and It has. The problem is they chose to try feinting on a heavily armored character in that bannerlord video. You can tell from the videos that heavily armored characters are much much more slower, actually slower than a heavily armored nord in warband. Chivalry cannot be compared to Warband when it comes to certain bad mechanics because chivalry's critical error was the ballerina movement. 



Also, in the general discussion, THEY HAVE NOT removed feinting, open your damn eyes in the video.
 
The feinting in a way we see in multiplayer servers and videos is only possible because Warband is broken. People are abusing the game mechanic because it allows them to do that. If there was a bug that allows us to walk through the walls, people would do that all the time. Ohh. Actually, people are walking all the time through walls, because the game is broken in that area also. The feinting is not a designed feature. It just is one thing that people learned that they can do. And it seems that there is benefits to do so, so they do.

Now if you wanna be a master in Warband, you need to learn all the bugs you possibly can and master them for your advantages. All the hitbox bugs, so you know where to aim with your spear or lance. Or kill someone out of your reach with small sword. How to use neogk barricades to walk through walls and doors. How to block attacks even tho your character is lying down on the ground. How to hit with a sword through doors to kill people behind it. All those countless very stupid things in the game. So if they can remove those from the game for ever, I would personally be very happy. People will find new bugs to abuse in Bannerlord. You will see.
 
Harmi said:
How to hit with a sword through doors to kill people behind it

Lmao i did this few times  :mrgreen: I agree with that feinting in Warband is just ridiculous, but in the video it seems more natural and normal and not seem like a bug at all. I hope TW won't change the speed of feinting much from that video.
 
SeánC said:
The Bowman said:
With all due respect to the elite community, you need to understand that the game isn't developed just for a fraction of the player base. The main issue appears when you mix the larger pool of players, who either give up trying to achieve the level of skill the more experienced players have, or simply don't have the time to invest. You cannot simply ignore them solely for the interests of the 'l33t'-side of the community.
Does that mean the developers have to dumb the game down and nullify the learning curve?
Stop there, removing feinting would dumb down the game, extremely. And are you actually saying that having feinting in the game ruins the learning curve? One of the main ways to tell if a player is good or not is to see if they can block complex feints. And no it's not just for the "l33t" side of the community I think it is all in our best interest to not strip down Mount and Blades mechanics simply to make it more accessible to new players, that's the very essence of Warband! Easy to learn, difficult to master. I do understand where you are coming from that players can't invest the time into the game to get good but we can't remove a learning curve just for these players because that would be ludicrous, you cannot cease to not reward people who put in the hours to become better at the game than others then the game would become something like chivalry.

I have the immersion that almost none of you who have quoted my comment have read it. First off, I have never advocated for the removal of feinting; secondly, I have also clearly stated in the very comment you quoted that I'm not for the removal of the learning curve.
In fact, I have posted earlier that I'm all for feinting to stay in, as long as it's fluid and understandable, therefore fully animated and without it looking exploity.
 
I think a lot of the feints that are effective in duelling are effective partly because the animations break in multiplayer. When people were playing on LAN at Bucharest feintings effectiveness nosedived and people started playing differently.

However I don't think lolfeint type attacks are remotely necessary for a deep and interesting game. I don't use many feints myself but still have tons of moves and attacks I can call on. A lot of misdirection attacks rely on moving the weapon in certain ways too, rather than changing attack direction itself (for instance swinging the sword right as you stab to make it mimic a right swing), these shouldn't be affected as far as I know.

In my opinion they should allow cancelling late into the animation as now in warband, they should however apply a cooldown based on what attack direction you are following up with, if you use the same direction the cooldown is less, switching directions should have a greater cost. The rapid 10X a second feints are a bit much, but feinting is useful for applying pressure on an opponent actively compared to the more passive hold.

So I would say overall yes, cool the feints down a bit and make it so the net code/animations can keep up but don't remove them.
 
The Bowman said:
I have the immersion that almost none of you who have quoted my comment have read it. First off, I have never advocated for the removal of feinting; secondly, I have also clearly stated in the very comment you quoted that I'm not for the removal of the learning curve.
In fact, I have posted earlier that I'm all for feinting to stay in, as long as it's fluid and understandable, therefore fully animated and without it looking exploity.
That's great that you don't want them removed but the feints in warband are understandable to an experienced player.

578 said:
Also, in the general discussion, THEY HAVE NOT removed feinting, open your damn eyes in the video.
My apologies, they're just dumbing it down.

Quite frankly, and respectfully, I do not see the point in continuing to debate with you guys you have seemed to have already made up your mind. I could just write another paragraph of rhetoric and then see all of your replies which really are going to cause me to loose my nonchalance. I'll reply if I see anyone state a decent point that hasn't been repeated several times. To be perfectly candid it's going to come down the prerogative. And if you are all going to say it should be dumbed down because you don't understand the interdisciplinarities of the game then there is no point of me even reading what you're saying. I hope Callum or another dev comes here and ends off of this pointless polemic.

#Pray4Feints
 
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