Feinting - pls give

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SeánC

Sergeant Knight
WBNW
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Judiciously I think we can all agree that feinting was the quintessence of 2h and arguably 1h play. I don't think it is a great idea to remove it completely, I get it you want to make the game more realistic but feinting was actually a thing in medieval Europe; although not the extent of what we see in Warband. (please do not turn this into a historical discussion either.)

Conclusion: feinting, pls give.
 

grimsight

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It's insanely disappointing if they are considering removing or significantly slowing feinting. It reinforces my fear that the developers are completely out of touch with the competitive side of their game, and aren't aware of all the complexities and very high skill cap mechanics that can keep players engaged for thousands of hours.

The vast majority of M&B fans and will only play MP up until the point where the novelty of 200 man sieges/battles wears off on them. They won't stick around for hundreds to thousands of hours trying to improve online. Why is multiplayer being changed to cater to these players who really have no interest in competitive?


edit extra:
"It doesn't look right" and "realism" are not sufficient arguments as far as I'm concerned. Gameplay implications are what should be taken into account when making changes to combat mechanics.

I hate to brand a large portion of the community, but I really think the majority of feinting complaints stems from : not knowing how to track and make sense of feints, not wanting to learn about them (fine by me), and because of this wanting them removed (we have a problem here).
I don't blame people. There are no learning resources when it comes to melee. Many new players think it is not even possible to block feints or stop spammers. But there is a better way to deal with this problem.

Some cons of removing feinting: Shooting high leveling dueling in the leg, drastically lowering skill cap, reducing overall clutch potential
Pros of removing feinting: Letting some new player role play as Braveheart a little bit easier. Or am I missing some amazing gameplay implication?
 

Lord Brutus

Archduke
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It's just a guess but those players, like in Warband, are generally a substantial majority.  At this very minute, Guildhall has 15 guests, single player has 51 guests.
 

grimsight

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Lord Brutus said:
It's just a guess but those players, like in Warband, are generally a substantial majority.
They are clearly the majority. But what are TW trying to accomplish? "Realism" - well the game is not realistic already. Is it to be more welcoming to new players? There are MUCH better solutions to that problem, that do not involve dumbing down the game and lowering the skill cap.
 

SeánC

Sergeant Knight
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grimsight said:
It's insanely disappointing if they are considering removing feinting. It reinforces my fear that the developers are completely out of touch with the competitive side of their game, and aren't aware of all the complexities and very high skill cap mechanics that can keep players engaged for thousands of hours.

The vast majority of M&B fans and will only play MP up until the point where the novelty of 200 man sieges/battles wears off on them. They won't stick around for hundreds to thousands of hours trying to improve online. Why is multiplayer being changed to cater to these players who really have no interest in competitive?
Well wrote, I completely agree.

Lord Brutus said:
It's just a guess but those players, like in Warband, are generally a substantial majority.
I have a lot of faith in Taleworlds that they will not completely throw aside their competitive community just look at Bucharest. But faith doesn't make them more money.

grimsight said:
Lord Brutus said:
It's just a guess but those players, like in Warband, are generally a substantial majority.
They are clearly the majority. But what are TW trying to accomplish? "Realism" - well the game is not realistic already. Is it to be more welcoming to new players? There are MUCH better solutions to that problem, that do not involve dumbing down the game and lowering the skill cap.
And the lower skill cap is the staple of modern games look at Call of Duty for example
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Subforum Moderator
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Lithuanian Esports Federation teamed up with Taleworlds to create Battle of Bucharest which took dueling at mind. Taking out the individual skill would mean they're completely blinded by the team-play aspect of the game. Unlike Warband where the single-player combat is slightly different to that of multi player, it seems like they've not changed the combat for the competitive/multi-player side of Bannerlord (as shown in footage given by Peter & Purzelblume).
 

Lord Brutus

Archduke
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I have no idea what TW is trying to accomplish.  Most of what they have accomplished thus far has been entirely unintended.
 

argon45

Baron
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Please, not give. It really looking very odd when a player doing countless times of feints in game. Just do a google search about "Warband feinting". I hope they remove feinting from game.
 

GaelicWarlord

Recruit
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Feinting as it was in Warband was cancer and needed to be fixed. That said I'm totally opposed to it being completely removed from the game.

I guess I can't say for certain until I see how combat feels without it.
 

DanAngleland

Grandmaster Knight
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SeánC said:
grimsight said:
can I get a source where they say no feinting?
My apologies: https://youtu.be/9kcwGFWTxpc?t=8m25s
If one watches the video at the time in question (beginning around 8:27) you can see that the player can interrupt his attacks, but is barely able to start them before stopping, so techincally you can still feint, it just won't be nearly as far into a swing as it is in Warband. Doubtless Taleworlds will respond to our feedback (which is why, I think, this decision was made in the first place) both now and even more so when we get to play the game for an extended period of time to try it out thoroughly.

I will say this though; I have played Warband multiplayer for hundreds or even thousands of hours, and in native that has almost exclusively been in public team modes- mainly siege. I've done a fair bit of duelling as well, but I am not great and in any case don't find it very interesting. Winning a duel is quite rewarding, but I cannot say I would stick around for it or feel motivated to try and master the techniques necessary to be a great player. Nor do I rely that much on feinting, enjoying and thriving more at using distance and timing in a duel as in all my Warband combat. It is the exciting chaos and effective teamwork (I know, doesn't happen a lot!) combined with the more relaxed atmosphere of public team modes that has kept me glued to the game- I miss CTF by the way, really sad that it lost popularity a few months after the games release. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose- siege is my favourite mode, and I didn't play it as a novelty and get bored. That is more how I'd describe duels, for me.

SeánC said:
Judiciously I think we can all agree that feinting was the quintessence of 2h and arguably 1h play.
Quintessence: the most typical example (according to the Cambridge online dictionary). In which case, perhaps your statement is accurate; certainly it is among the most recognisable tactics. But that does not mean feinting is a good thing, or necessary. I've read about (and fought) very effective players who hardly or never feint in duels.
 

Silen

Duke
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GaelicWarlord said:
Feinting as it was in Warband was cancer and needed to be fixed. That said I'm totally opposed to it being completely removed from the game.

I guess I can't say for certain until I see how combat feels without it.
I agree with you.

If you look at the video, feinting in Bannerlord looks good as it currently is, without spastic unrealistic movements. Please, I don't want the latter.
 

SeánC

Sergeant Knight
WBNW
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grimsight said:
It's insanely disappointing if they are considering removing feinting. It reinforces my fear that the developers are completely out of touch with the competitive side of their game, and aren't aware of all the complexities and very high skill cap mechanics that can keep players engaged for thousands of hours.
To be honest no matter what anyone says this statement cannot be made less true.
 

Silen

Duke
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Just look at that (around 0:36). I seriously don't want to see that in Bannerlord. I am certain the game can still be very competitive without those dumb movements.
 

DanAngleland

Grandmaster Knight
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I don't think they are ignorant of what the playerbase thinks, the subject was thoroughly debated a number of times in the old Bannerlord thread years back and believe me I remember a range of opinions being put forward; competitive players and champions of feinting were very vocal and I'm sure the devs are aware of their views. Not to mention of course one of their staff, Captain Lust, was always a champion of competitive play. In any case, they have said they are still considering it. For our part, as right as it is for it to be discussed now, until we have played it extensively and given our feedback then we cannot come to a definitive consensus on this or any other gameplay matter. It's premature to worry about the depth of the combat being reduced when we haven't played it.

EDIT: Also, with new features such as subsequent swings being faster after a successful swing, the high level play may simply revolve around different mechanics. The dynamic will undoubtedly change, but that doesn't mean there won't be complexity to the game anymore.
 

Ron Burgundy

I do hope feints in Bannerlord (if they were to exist) wouldn't be exactly like they exist in Warband. Warband feints look utterly ridiculous and make no sense at all. The problem isn't the concept of having feints in the game, it was how they were implemented/operated.


There is little to no fluidity in how the weapons move while feinting, they mostly just appear where your next attack direction is. It is as if the weapon has absolutely no weight to it at all, so the character can instantaneously move its' arm to the new position. If there were actual animations for transitions between strikes it would look clean and feel more real while still having a decent skill cap. This would likely slow down the speed of feints a bit, but if the time to attack/block is properly paired I think it would work well. The chaining attacks look like an effort in this direction, though they aren't quite the same.
 

Silen

Duke
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Ron Burgundy said:
I do hope feints in Bannerlord (if they were to exist) wouldn't be exactly like they exist in Warband. Warband feints look utterly ridiculous and make no sense at all. The problem isn't the concept of having feints in the game, it was how they were implemented/operated.


There is little to no fluidity in how the weapons move while feinting, they mostly just appear where your next attack direction is. It is as if the weapon has absolutely no weight to it at all, so the character can instantaneously move its' arm to the new position. If there were actual animations for transitions between strikes it would look clean and feel more real while still having a decent skill cap. This would likely slow down the speed of feints a bit, but if the time to attack/block is properly paired I think it would work well. The chaining attacks look like an effort in this direction, though they aren't quite the same.
Exactly, agreed completely.