Athletics capped at 6
Feature Walk Backwards discussion and fix for who dont wish this feature.
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graycloak
Sergeant
I'm not completely opposed to the feature, but I do have some problems with it.
First, like many of the other breakage/negative features it only applies to the player; frankly if I want more difficulty I have a lot of other ways to add it without this. It is pretty jarring/unrealistic to have my warrior stumbling and falling when even the lowliest npc peasant does not.
Secondly; even the revised chances here based on athletics are far too high. Speaking as someone who is admittedly not the most athletic individual who has been doing various forms of re-enactment combat for over a decade, I have fallen over backwards (without being hit by someone) exactly ONCE in all those years and that was because I tried to run backwards without noticing a dead guy behind me. I haven't stumbled or fallen forwards more than a handful of times either.
Even if the final version is 1/10th as common as the chart presented, it might be too often. (4-5% chance with no skill at all, down to 1% with athletics 5+)
Lastly; this combined with the wounding system, weapon breakage etc is well past the point where actually fighting is 'fun' which I have a problem with. I think we all want a nod to realism, but not so far that it makes the elements of mount & blade pointless. This is a first person combat game, I want to be fighting in the shield wall, not hiding on a horse running away because the game mechanics make even trying to fight an exercise in futility. (Nor do I really want to have to 'mod the mod' or turn off most of the features that make the mod unique)
First, like many of the other breakage/negative features it only applies to the player; frankly if I want more difficulty I have a lot of other ways to add it without this. It is pretty jarring/unrealistic to have my warrior stumbling and falling when even the lowliest npc peasant does not.
Secondly; even the revised chances here based on athletics are far too high. Speaking as someone who is admittedly not the most athletic individual who has been doing various forms of re-enactment combat for over a decade, I have fallen over backwards (without being hit by someone) exactly ONCE in all those years and that was because I tried to run backwards without noticing a dead guy behind me. I haven't stumbled or fallen forwards more than a handful of times either.
Even if the final version is 1/10th as common as the chart presented, it might be too often. (4-5% chance with no skill at all, down to 1% with athletics 5+)
Lastly; this combined with the wounding system, weapon breakage etc is well past the point where actually fighting is 'fun' which I have a problem with. I think we all want a nod to realism, but not so far that it makes the elements of mount & blade pointless. This is a first person combat game, I want to be fighting in the shield wall, not hiding on a horse running away because the game mechanics make even trying to fight an exercise in futility. (Nor do I really want to have to 'mod the mod' or turn off most of the features that make the mod unique)
But like rennactor how much time have you run backwards (without look back), 10 or 15 steps and attack to your opponet?
In your rennactors combats, have you move more of 10 meters arround?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOt46Fljfms&playnext=1&list=PL5CC44E51060592A2
In your rennactors combats, have you move more of 10 meters arround?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOt46Fljfms&playnext=1&list=PL5CC44E51060592A2
<lot's of good points snipped>
This is basicly the crux of the matter. M&B has us fighting battles much more often than a real warrior would have fought - because we like it. (I doubt most anglo saxon warriors would have been fighting for their life every couple of days, not likely even once a year on the average).
If combat is made to be as dangerous as in reality then the player has to remain in the sidelines/or start to abuse the system (only killing fleeing enemies etc-). We want to be able to take part in personal combat with the enemy, to be able to make difference by our presence in the battlefield. This means there has to be a suitable compromise between realism (aids in immersion) and gameplay (for gratification)
Realism is all fine and nice when used in moderation. Too much realism and we would not want to fight anymore...
"If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks" - Frederick the Great.
As for the tripping I'm happy that it will be made optional. If 0 athletics represents a normal person, then having him falling down almost every other step (40%) is WAY too much. I'd make the chances something like 4% 3% 2% and 1% per step, maximum. There would still be a significent risk, as even 1% chance per step means that after just 10 steps you'd have fallen in almost 10 % of cases, after 70 steps you would have fallen half of the time. If a high athletics character takes just 10 steps backwards per battle then after 7 battles it is more likely that he has already fallen than not!.
The now proposed 40-30-20-10 means that even an athletics 5 character will fall in more than half the cases after having taken just 7 steps backward.
graycloak said:
This is basicly the crux of the matter. M&B has us fighting battles much more often than a real warrior would have fought - because we like it. (I doubt most anglo saxon warriors would have been fighting for their life every couple of days, not likely even once a year on the average).
If combat is made to be as dangerous as in reality then the player has to remain in the sidelines/or start to abuse the system (only killing fleeing enemies etc-). We want to be able to take part in personal combat with the enemy, to be able to make difference by our presence in the battlefield. This means there has to be a suitable compromise between realism (aids in immersion) and gameplay (for gratification)
Realism is all fine and nice when used in moderation. Too much realism and we would not want to fight anymore...
"If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks" - Frederick the Great.
As for the tripping I'm happy that it will be made optional. If 0 athletics represents a normal person, then having him falling down almost every other step (40%) is WAY too much. I'd make the chances something like 4% 3% 2% and 1% per step, maximum. There would still be a significent risk, as even 1% chance per step means that after just 10 steps you'd have fallen in almost 10 % of cases, after 70 steps you would have fallen half of the time. If a high athletics character takes just 10 steps backwards per battle then after 7 battles it is more likely that he has already fallen than not!.
The now proposed 40-30-20-10 means that even an athletics 5 character will fall in more than half the cases after having taken just 7 steps backward.
Strictly speaking, that's not right. Arithmetically, yes, you should fall down 1 step out of ten, but what makes the system really is that in each step is a probability of 1 in 10 that you fall. That makes it very hard to fall (at a real rate of more than 1 / 100), but not impossible, that's the idea, so the player does not rely abuse and killing NPCs.
Idibil said:
Idibil, if taking each step results in 1/10 chance of falling, then after one step the person has 9/10 (90%) chance of having not fallen. After two steps the person has (9/10)*(9/10)=(9/10)^2=0.81 (81%) chance of having not fallen already (either during step one or step two)...after 7 steps the person has (9/10)^7= 0.4782969 (about 48%) chance of not having already fallen.
This means that a mere 10% chance to fall per step results in over 50% chance of falling during just seven steps.
Trust me on this, working with probabilities is my day job.
Roh
Sergeant
I have to tell you I am very capable of jogging backward while only glancing occasionally unless its in a place with a lot of obstacles. At which point I would never try jogging backward.
That being said in a fight I would walk.. Or more likely shuffle backward sliding one food just above the ground so I could bump any thing and go around or stop if needed. I would have to be extremely drunk to fall like shown in the game.
If you want to do a realistic effect.. Have reverse movement have a larger slowdown that shrinks dependent on athletics and intelligence if you want to attribute situational awareness to something.
This falling down with every other reverse step is only realistic if you intend this game to be populated by some alternate reality of humans who have the motor skills of a toddler.
That being said in a fight I would walk.. Or more likely shuffle backward sliding one food just above the ground so I could bump any thing and go around or stop if needed. I would have to be extremely drunk to fall like shown in the game.
If you want to do a realistic effect.. Have reverse movement have a larger slowdown that shrinks dependent on athletics and intelligence if you want to attribute situational awareness to something.
This falling down with every other reverse step is only realistic if you intend this game to be populated by some alternate reality of humans who have the motor skills of a toddler.
Well, you didn't really want to drink the water back then, so everyone drank ale or mead. People were basically half sloshed all the time, so maybe it is fairly realistic 
ShadowLance
Recruit
Lohi-soturi said:
Good point. So maybe 1 or 2% would be more in line.
I do agree with what Idibil is trying to do. While there are some reasons to step backwards in melee combat, running or even walking backwards for any great distance is a bad idea; one likely to get you hurt or killed. I was trained to move in a circle to lessen the chance of tripping or backing into an object and getting trapped. Having said all that, I hate this feature. Even if it is realistic, because of the necessity of moving backwads in this game it is definitely not fun. for now, I will disable it; I would definitely be interested in a toned down version of the feature. In either case, You rock Idibil and the rest of the Devs; GREAT MOD!
Why?
Wandering Barbarian said:
I am no expert, but you are forgetting some things. The armor your character wears, which was truly heavy (along with his boots, helmet, weapons etc), and the probability to trip on a fallen weapon, or a rock/hole on the ground because you are looking forward.
Additionally, it's not like that in battle. It was the exact opposite. They focused ALL of their energy and ALL their senses in trying not to be killed. Not the same with taking a weapon and moving backwards in your lawn.
Again i am no expert on combat, but these things seem logical to me, do they not?
Lohi-soturi said:
This is a good point. I am of letters. If idea is a 10% for at 5 or 6, how much should it be then?
Idibil said:
Depends on the amount of steps you like to consider. I'll write you a formula and give a few examples:
k = number of steps (you choose this)
c = chance to fall during taking k steps (you choose this)
r = risk to fall per step (the formula gives you this)
then
r=1-(1-c)^(1/k)
Example 1: You want the chance to fall to be 10% (=0.1) for taking 15 steps. Then you need the following risk per step:
r=1-(1-0.1)^(1/15)=0.006999424 (about 0.7 % per step).
Example 2: If you want the chance to fall to be 40 % (=0.4) for taking 10 steps then
r=1-(1-0.4)^(1/10)=0.049799783 (about 5 % per step).
Cheers,
Lohi.
With that information then it should be:
0-Athletics = 5% fall
2 or more Athletics = 3% Fall
4 or more At = 2% Fall
5 or more At = 1% Fall (we cannt add less)
Maybe this % is very low...
0-Athletics = 5% fall
2 or more Athletics = 3% Fall
4 or more At = 2% Fall
5 or more At = 1% Fall (we cannt add less)
Maybe this % is very low...
Idibil said:
Don't worry, they are definitely big enough to prevent the player from relying on backpedaling:
Even though the percentages look small they will still make it very risky to walk backwards for long...after 25 steps even a 5 at guy has fallen 22% of the time and an atheletics 0 guy will have fallen with about 72% chance.
Even if you take just few steps back per battle, sooner or later you will fall even with 5 athletics.
Mm, but then maybe it shouldnt be optional
