Fatigue System
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Idibil 说:Count Roland 说:Kruel 说:
I do kind of medieval figthing stuff myself, so i know, that a chainmail is absolutely not very heavy. You can move with it very good and if you get used to it, it won't slow you down, at least you won't hit the ground from it's weight. So I agree with that. Fatigue system is a good think, but it needs some "repair". The penalties should be lowered.
Interesting hear this. However you have think that it is more than 15 kg, and a battle is very intense. Have you tried fight 15-20 m with all equipament (mail + shield + helmet + sword or spear). Shield, specially, is each time more heavy.
However, I like know your opinions but best balance in this feature.
Well. I don't argue with that. But still not the chainmail, which is getting heavy, but the sword and the shield, because, the weight of the mail is all across your body and if you put up your belt correctly, the weight won't be only on your shoulders but ony your waist too. So you can run around all day with that. After 10 minutes of intense fighting, the sword and your shield is getting damn heavy and you need to be really strong to hold it and make hits and/or defend yourself.
What i wanted to say, is, that the penalty on armor should be lowered, but you can put it on shields and maybe on weapons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNQ55HXa-W0
At the end of the great battle(begins at 12:06) it was hard to hold the weapon and the shield, but i didn't have any problems with the chainmail.
At the end of the great battle(begins at 12:06) it was hard to hold the weapon and the shield, but i didn't have any problems with the chainmail.
Actual fatigue penalties are:
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -4 pts
with medium armor: -2pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -1 pt
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -1 pt
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -9 pts each 3 seconds.
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit::
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -4 pts
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -4 pts
with medium armor: -2pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -1 pt
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -1 pt
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -9 pts each 3 seconds.
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit::
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -4 pts
Funkeh
Sergeant
Thanks for the numbers Idibil. I can see that the thing bothering me is that the regain for heavy armour is way slower than the regain for light armour, as athletics 2 (thanks to -4 from heavy armour, shield, helmet, boots) + 1 = 3 points every 4 seconds.
That means it would take 24 seconds of rest, to run for 3 seconds!
That means it would take 24 seconds of rest, to run for 3 seconds!
Yeah, fatigue is WAY overdone. Either the rate of stamina drain or the stamina recharge penalty needs to be decreased.
Well, an option could be:
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -2 pts
with medium armor: -1pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -1 pt
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -2 pt
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -7 pts each 3 seconds.
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit::
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -3 pts
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -2 pts
with medium armor: -1pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -1 pt
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -2 pt
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -7 pts each 3 seconds.
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit::
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -3 pts
Looks good!
The problem is you're double-penalizing heavy armor users in excess of what someone conditioned to wearing such armor would really experience. Not only do they drain stamina faster, the penalty to Athletics from wearing it is cutting too deeply into your total stamina. As I've mentioned before, I've fought in 30lbs of mail and I can still move at my top speed without too much trouble (and I'm not even conditioned to wearing it for more than 2-3 hours at a time. Some guy I know participate in events where they're in mail all day). I'm certainly no less athletic when I put mail on as opposed to going without it.
I think a mildly increased rate of stamina drain over lighter armor, (an added -2 Stamina as you mention in your last post seems fine) while largely reducing or outright eliminating the penalties to Athletics and stamina regeneration would present a much more accurate picture of the effects of wearing such equipment.
I think a mildly increased rate of stamina drain over lighter armor, (an added -2 Stamina as you mention in your last post seems fine) while largely reducing or outright eliminating the penalties to Athletics and stamina regeneration would present a much more accurate picture of the effects of wearing such equipment.
Funkeh
Sergeant
I tend to agree. As simulation in game, if you start with a character around 5 agility in Brytenwalda (probably very common, as most tend to get high strength then go back and get agility), it will be at level 20 that you have 6 athletics, and thus 2 if you are wearing heavy armour.
This may take over 100 days of in-game play time. During this time, I would imagine that if you were training in mail and wearing it everywhere to get used to its encumberance, you would be quite used to it at this point.
While I have no concrete sources that suggest any of this, I would agree that the closest thing in the 7th Century to professional soldiers would be the land owners with expensive equipment. I wouldn't doubt that a great deal of these men saw active fighting and would therefore train themselves constantly. Modern soldiers may have more information on how to train more efficiently and purposefully, but I'd certainly put the two on an even footing with regards to being able to perform in their necessary war gear.
One way of solving it is that whilst your athletics is penalised wearing heavy armour, shield, helm and boots; your max stamina is determined by your athletics before penalty. Thus you would move slower than if you were in light armour as you still have 2 (max of 6-4) athletics, but your level of endurance doesn't change. Instead you will tire more quickly, but your conditioning to the armour is represented.
Of course these changes would limit the impact of stamina on the game, but I feel at the moment in heavy armour one tires after 2 maybe 3 kills and then cannot fight or move for several minutes (in which the fight has either pushed far away from you or you have been killed).
I think if the penalties for carrying equipment are reduced slightly, but the use of weapons is increased slightly. Then your max stamina is the same if you are wearing light or heavy armour, but stamina will drain more quickly than light armour meaning you have to rest more - but it will not stop your ability to fight past the opening minute of combat.
Maybe these numbers:
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -2 pts
with medium armor: -1pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -1 pt No penalty to stamina, penalty to throw and archery remains
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -2 pt -1 pt for running
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -7 pts each 3 seconds.-4 pts per second for running in full heavy armour
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit:: These can all stay the same, at least until testing
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -3 pts
This would mean that a heavy infantryman would lose a max of -7 points of stamina per second, in a fluid fight. With a max stamina of say (55 health + 6 athletics, so a conditioned warrior in the mid game of the mod) = 91 stamina points, this man could fight for 16 seconds without stopping (including a regen of 7 points per 4 seconds).
After these 16 seconds, this soldier must rest 3 seconds for every second of fighting - to restore to full stamina from stationary will take 52 seconds.
I think these numbers are reasonable as this will not be as soon as a character puts on mail (I usually get a wolf lorica from a tournament, or a decent set of mail in loot before 150 days/level 20~ in Brytenwalda), this is a mid-game character who has been customised to be a warrior (neglecting intelligence and charisma completely).
What do you guys think?
This may take over 100 days of in-game play time. During this time, I would imagine that if you were training in mail and wearing it everywhere to get used to its encumberance, you would be quite used to it at this point.
While I have no concrete sources that suggest any of this, I would agree that the closest thing in the 7th Century to professional soldiers would be the land owners with expensive equipment. I wouldn't doubt that a great deal of these men saw active fighting and would therefore train themselves constantly. Modern soldiers may have more information on how to train more efficiently and purposefully, but I'd certainly put the two on an even footing with regards to being able to perform in their necessary war gear.
One way of solving it is that whilst your athletics is penalised wearing heavy armour, shield, helm and boots; your max stamina is determined by your athletics before penalty. Thus you would move slower than if you were in light armour as you still have 2 (max of 6-4) athletics, but your level of endurance doesn't change. Instead you will tire more quickly, but your conditioning to the armour is represented.
Of course these changes would limit the impact of stamina on the game, but I feel at the moment in heavy armour one tires after 2 maybe 3 kills and then cannot fight or move for several minutes (in which the fight has either pushed far away from you or you have been killed).
I think if the penalties for carrying equipment are reduced slightly, but the use of weapons is increased slightly. Then your max stamina is the same if you are wearing light or heavy armour, but stamina will drain more quickly than light armour meaning you have to rest more - but it will not stop your ability to fight past the opening minute of combat.
Maybe these numbers:
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -2 pts
with medium armor: -1pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -1 pt No penalty to stamina, penalty to throw and archery remains
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -2 pt -1 pt for running
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -7 pts each 3 seconds.-4 pts per second for running in full heavy armour
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit:: These can all stay the same, at least until testing
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -3 pts
This would mean that a heavy infantryman would lose a max of -7 points of stamina per second, in a fluid fight. With a max stamina of say (55 health + 6 athletics, so a conditioned warrior in the mid game of the mod) = 91 stamina points, this man could fight for 16 seconds without stopping (including a regen of 7 points per 4 seconds).
After these 16 seconds, this soldier must rest 3 seconds for every second of fighting - to restore to full stamina from stationary will take 52 seconds.
I think these numbers are reasonable as this will not be as soon as a character puts on mail (I usually get a wolf lorica from a tournament, or a decent set of mail in loot before 150 days/level 20~ in Brytenwalda), this is a mid-game character who has been customised to be a warrior (neglecting intelligence and charisma completely).
What do you guys think?
Funkeh, you mean this?
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -2 pts
with medium armor: -1pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -0
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -1 pt
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -4 pts each 3 seconds.
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit:: These can all stay the same, at least until testing
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -3 pts
You have think that a player with 5 athletics recovery stamina to 6 points each 4 seconds, if he recovery more fastly that he lose while run, he is tired never.
Run: -2 pts
with heavy armor: -2 pts
with medium armor: -1pts
Naked: +1 pt
with heavy helmet: -0
with Heavy boot: -1 pt
With Heavy shield: -1 pt
Heavy infantry by example lose max = -4 pts each 3 seconds.
A player can have fatigue:
health + athletics skill *3 / 2 = stamina points.
Too, when he fight lose with each hit:: These can all stay the same, at least until testing
small weapon = -1 pt
medium weapon or polearm = -2 pts
heavy weapon = -3 pts
You have think that a player with 5 athletics recovery stamina to 6 points each 4 seconds, if he recovery more fastly that he lose while run, he is tired never.
Funkeh
Sergeant
But when the player actually fights (no player fights standing still, they move backwards and forwards and side to side = running), they will grow tired.
I know the running without tiring isn't exactly realistic/ideal, but it would stop the problem of running out of stamina before getting to the fight, or the fight ends and you cannot move back to reinforcements. Yet, when you are fighting, you can only last a little while before having to move back out of the way.
-edit
Idibil, when you make the calculation for stamina loss, isn't it run -2, heavy armour -2, shield -1. heavy boots -1 = -6 pts/s? Then recovery of 6 pts (5 athletics + 1) per 4 seconds means you would still tire from running right? You would last longer though but that is kind of my aim - don't know if it is for everyone though! Just a suggestion.
I know the running without tiring isn't exactly realistic/ideal, but it would stop the problem of running out of stamina before getting to the fight, or the fight ends and you cannot move back to reinforcements. Yet, when you are fighting, you can only last a little while before having to move back out of the way.
-edit
Idibil, when you make the calculation for stamina loss, isn't it run -2, heavy armour -2, shield -1. heavy boots -1 = -6 pts/s? Then recovery of 6 pts (5 athletics + 1) per 4 seconds means you would still tire from running right? You would last longer though but that is kind of my aim - don't know if it is for everyone though! Just a suggestion.
