Faction Heraldry

[PSYCHO V]

One thing that has struck me with the faction heraldry is that there appears to be no ryhme or reason as to who has what in most cases. I understand that this whole setting is fictional but it would be a great addition if there was a general theme to the heraldry of the various factions.

For example, if:

• The Nords had all the Germanic eagle / axe / sea monster type heraldry.
  
• The Khergits had all the Mongolian symbols, archery, scimitar, eastern type heraldry.
  
• The Vaegirs had all the French 'fleurs de lis' symbols, boar, stag, crossbow type heraldry
  
• The Swadians had all the English styled lions, western horse, western sword, crosses, roses, type heraldry
  
• The Rhodoks had all the Bear, castle, swan, stripey, checkered, type heraldry

I believe this simple change would add a great deal to the ambience as opposed to having exotic eastern looking Khergits flying Germanic eagle banners fighting Nordic looking Nords flying the same type of banner, etc

Thoughts?


my2bob

 

[Apollon-04]

Yes.

 

[Art Falmingaid]

I absolutely agree.  The Khanate heraldry is all very similar and logical for horsemen to possess, but the other factions have heraldry that makes no sense, like a Rhodocks lord has a horse banner and a Nord lord has a crossbow banner and also the other factions have no common style among lords of the same faction.

To further this idea, I think its very important that the banners the lords have be unavailable to the PC when choosing a banner.  It makes little sense that the player could choose a banner a lord has, forcing that lord to choose a different one.  Since many of the lords' banners are very good ones, variations of those banners should be available.  But, like I just said, the PC should not be able to choose a banner a lord already has.

 

[uly]

Yes.  And it doesn't even have to be differentiated based on the charges.  I'd say that Khergit heraldry can be completely non-western; a cloth pattern for example, something like the side of the Belarusian flag.

Furthermore, the factions can also be differentiated by their banner style: square, horizontal, vertical.  They seem to be more or less randomly chosen now, but I think different faction should prefer different banner shape and orientation, and perhaps even different flag poles.

 

[buzbybadman]

Simple and effective, add the little things together! Voting..

 

[Bismarck]

I have another suggestion:

Nords should get nordic symbols like axes, a reindeer etc.
Swadians deserve the double headed black eagle on yellow ground
Vaegirs should get the bear, bows etc.
Rhodoks could use a venezian style lion
Khergits should use strange symbols, horses etc.

 

[Sir Devlyn]

This idea has been bouncing around my head for a week, and I've been trying to think of how to implement this ingame.  I came looking here for more info and find somebody else has the same idea.

I've been thinking about what elements should carry in the banners.

1) I'm thinking that it would be good if the general color theme was at least somewhat related to the faction color, i.e. green for vaegirs, yellow for nord, etc.  Not only can you then tell from a glance at the banner what faction the lord belongs to, but later, when a faction is eliminated, you can still see which lords were originally part of that faction, and which came from others.  Plus, if you see nord lord with a blue banner, for example, you would know that that lord would generally have Rhodock troops in his army, despite being a nord lord, which could affect your decision on who / how to fight.

2) In addition to color, there should also be a commonality for symbols and patterns.  As an alternative to the OP, these are my ideas:

Rhodocks - checker borders top and bottom / hand held items (weapons, tools) or textiles
............. ex. banner_a.dds #16, only with item instead of lion
............. ex. Hall of Heraldry border like Miclee or Yoshiboy, only item instead of animal
Swadia - alternating color quadrants / symbols of power, wealth, flowers, plus sign*
............. ex. Hall of Heraldry Crusaders of Praven, Order of the Wind (with different symbol)
............. ex. maybe banner_c.dds #3
Nords - diagonal or vertical stripes / naval symbols, axes
............. ex. banner_b.dds #11
Vaegirs - vertical halves of two colors / animals, bows
............. ex. banner_d.dds #17
Khergit - monochrome, or with a portion top or bottom of different color / eastern-looking symbols and shapes
............. ex. banner_b.dds #6, only without flower
............. ex. banner_d.dds #10

* I say plus sign instead of cross, as I don't want to invoke any Chrstian connotations, or at least, any more than necessary.  Also, if you'll note, the Great Helm has a gold plus on the front, and the Great Helm is commonly worn by Swadian Knights (Hired Blades too, but we'll ignore them), justifying having the plus on Swadian banners.  I think the Crusaders of Praven banner is a perfect example of a Swadian banner.

If we ignore patterns for banners, allowing all to have whatever, then at least I feel that colors and symbols should be consistent.  For example, in this case, Gryphon and Lóegaire ap Taranis from the Hall of Heraldry could work for vaegirs, since they have green backgrounds with animal symbols.

I'm also thinking it might be nice if all the kings had crowns on their banners (ex. banner_a.dds #5 for vaegirs), and possibly special symbols for dukes (I call lords that control towns, dukes), maybe something around a symbol, to emphasize it.  For example, banner_b.dds #5 works for Duke Naldera, lord of Curaw.

I believe that ultimately the average player should be able to look at any banner and tell at a glance what faction that lord belong(ed) to, and the more rules we have for lord banners, the more info a player could derive, which would only make the game cooler, no?

 

[PSYCHO V]

This idea has been bouncing around my head for a week, and I've been trying to think of how to implement this ingame....

Some good ideas. I'm not sure how close they are to gold, mustn't be too far away for a Sept release. A simple rearrangement of content they already have wouldn't take too much work and would add a great deal imho to the ambience.

my2bob

 

[Crom The Conqueror]

I agree with the original poster (and the one about not having copies of another lords banner). It would be a nice touch.

Swadians - Western Dragons, Eagles, Western Swords

Nord - Bears, Sea Monsters, Axes, Ships

Khergit - Scimitars, Eastern Dragons, Horses, Bows, Exotic Symbols

Vaegir - Boars, Swans, Roses, English Bears

Rhodoks - Castles, Spears, Crossbows, Shields

 

[Zilberfrid]

The custom heraldry system discussed in king's court could add in nicely, giving you choices only from the faction where you get the banner (and yes, You will have to choose faction when choosing your father's lineage, maybe even in a separate question to line up the rest of the questions better)

 

[PSYCHO V]

The custom heraldry system discussed in king's court could add in nicely, giving you choices only from the faction where you get the banner (and yes, You will have to choose faction when choosing your father's lineage, maybe even in a separate question to line up the rest of the questions better)

That would be great!

 

[Róisín]

While I completely agree with the idea of having seperate and unique styles between the different factions, especially for the Khergit and Nords, assigning specific charges and field treatments to each faction would be like saying, "All anime characters have blue eyes, and all western animation characters have brown eyes."

There are ways to distinguish heraldry from different regions and cultures without having to divvy up the charges.  The only faction this would seem appropriate for would be the Rhodocks, who seem to define themselves as being "not Swadian".  For example:

Swadian- typical western heraldry, but with very clean lines and a minimum of ornamentation.  Simple blazons, often consiting only of a field division, or a single charge- often just an ordinaire.  Swadian heraldry, along with Vaegir, should be the oldest of the Calradian lines, which generally means translates into simpler.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a Swadian device that is simply a solid field with no charges.  In Europe, all the solid fields (except, I think, purpure) were actually used as arms.

Rhodock- same clean lines as the Swadians, but with more complexity in their devices, having secondary and tertiary charges.  The charges would be smaller (eg.  sub-ordinaires, or a lion's paw instead of the whole lion) and lean more towards the free city-state values of the Rhodocks (eg. bezants, chess pieces, porticullises, etc.).

Nords- The Nords would be in transition between the earlier "paint yer shield purdy" style of the Sea Raiders and the more systemized heraldry of landed cultures in Calradia.  There would still be the swirly quartered designs already seen on norse and norman shields in game and other things that are hard to blazon, like a solid field with a symbol composed of three or four runes.  A few of the more prominent lords, who have had the most political interaction with the rest of the continent would have more Swadian-style arms:  simple, clean, with a single prominent (and sufficiently manly and militaristic) charge.  Nautical motifs would also be prominent.

Vaegir- The biggest difference between the Vaegir and the Swadians would be an artistic one.  Where the Swadian heraldry uses clean lines, and a minimum of ornamentation, Vaegir heraldry would be much more free and expressive, like something from A.C. Fox-Davies.  For an example, consider these two lions:

The one on the left could be Vaegir, and the one on the right Swadian.

Kerghit- would have decidedly non-western heraldry.  I would make triangular patterns predominate, similar to many Japanese mon.  But that's a discussion that would take a lot more time than I have at the moment.