Eyegrim is impossible to beat in new update

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King Edric

Sergeant
Flazz said:
UndeadDuke said:
Well, Eyegrim doesn't invade with 8k army and instant plans of sacking the nearest city. There is a time period in which player is able to take some measures and prevent him for becoming unstoppable. Now when you know what a threat he can be if ignored, it is a good motivation to deal with his army as soon as possible right after spawn notification. The only real problem in his army are Revenants, and he can't restore them from alive party members so once you are done with these, you can turn next rounds in your favor quite easily.

This isn't an option if he spawns quickly after starting a new game. In my current save, he was at 8k troops before I could even do anything. I didn't have any ability to stop him before he became absurdly powerful. Yeah, sure, late in the game you can just kill him very quickly, but that isn't an option if he immediately spawns while you're useless against everything.
Not sure for how long did you allow him to run around and get those 8k troops, he couldn't have gotten those troops in like two weeks in game. That being said he spawned in my game yesterday (Day 200) and I easily lured him into Rasmus after like 20 or so days after he spawned (Eyegrim at this point had about 700 units) and defeated him. Now, the fight was tough as he fields a bunch of really powerful cavalry units, but I only had like 130 troops of my own with not too many elites mixed in with mid-tier troops and Rasmus had 700 troops of his own. With an elite army together with a friendly spawn or a marshalled force he can be dealt with. I think ya got really unlucky with how many prisoners was he able to acquire  :shock:
 

AngryJesus

Recruit
I'm playing as Fierdsvains and there's a Vanskeery landing party of 1700+ paroling around Javiksholm, suffice to say, we lost 3 castles already because everyone is dead :grin:
 

Montague

Sergeant
I was able to beat him when he had around 1000 "men" with a little luck - he ran right into an Empire marshall stack. Lost the first battle but took out most of his revenants, second battle was won easily.

I don't think he's impossible to beat by any means, but I'm not a fan of this tweak. I do like the thought of the existential threat trope, but Eyegrim's mechanic goes against the Pendor playstyle IMO. Pendor gameplay to me rewards patience and smart play, and increased difficulty with increased reward. Eyegrim doesn't fit into this paradigm - his mechanic encourages quick action and kiting cheese in order to avoid a spiraling difficulty that offers no additional reward.

What would be cool is if Eyegrim got to astronomical numbers it kicked off a quest. Maybe you'd have to go to each faction ruler a la Jon Snow and warn of the existential threat, choose the right approach (according to their lore and personality) and he sends a certain number of lords with you. You then have a certain amount of time to find Eyegrim and destroy him, and you get some obscene reward for winning.  That's probably not possible as is but if Eyegrim is going to be capable of getting to an absurd amount of strength, instead of nerfing him or deleting the mechanic, some sort of additional reward/mechanic for beating Uber-Eyegrim would at least give players a choice - act immediately for the CKO rewards before he gets very big, or let him grow and get additional rewards.

Just my two cents.
 

Huillam

Grandmaster Knight
WB
UndeadDuke said:
Well, Eyegrim doesn't invade with 8k army and instant plans of sacking the nearest city. There is a time period in which player is able to take some measures and prevent him for becoming unstoppable.
Which means that hunting Eyegrim the moment he spawns is no longer a choice I could make as the player but a mandatory reaction. That's the opposite of a good design: Not only is the choice taken away from me but the alternative doesn't involve difficulty but a slow and annoying grind.
 

sher

Baron
The only redeeming feature of this mechanic is that unlike other snowballing spawns this will keep its face - undead horde. Easiest solution to make him manageable "end game boss" would be limiting his conversion at certain number for his army size - to be able to have reasonable field presence having marshall host of allied lords who will not run away form you leading attack on him. Unlocks can be passed to Three Seers to not force player to do this kiting or solo nonsense. Considering his name he should be serious menace but the way it implemented now doesn't look good.
 

Dalion

Knight
Huillam said:
That's the opposite of a good design: Not only is the choice taken away from me but the alternative doesn't involve difficulty but a slow and annoying grind.
If huge enemy army doesn't involve difficulty for you, then what does?
If he would convert only alive party members and not prisoners, would that solve the issue? If yes, then here is a solution:
Open simple_triggers.txt, search for 25.000000

You should find this:
25.000000  116 11 1 1224979098644774912 32 2 1224979098644774912 648518346341351673 1652 3 1224979098644774913 1224979098644774912 0 4 0 33 3 1224979098644774913 360287970189640211 360287970189640311 2147484188 3 1224979098644774913 2 2 500 3 1224979098644774913 2 2 3 0 1609 2 1224979098644774914 1224979098644774912 31 2 1224979098644774914 576460752303423560 1680 2 1224979098644774915 1224979098644774912 31 2 1224979098644774915 -1 4 0 1630 3 1224979098644774916 1224979098644774912 360287970189640031 2147483680 2 1224979098644774916 0 1612 3 1224979098644774912 360287970189640031 1 1105 2 1585267068834416777 16732240 3 0 2133 2 1224979098644774917 0 4 0 1650 2 1224979098644774918 1224979098644774912 32 2 1224979098644774918 1 7 3 1224979098644774919 1 1224979098644774918 1652 3 1224979098644774920 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774919 1506 2 1224979098644774921 1224979098644774920 2147483679 2 1224979098644774921 3 2147485155 1 1224979098644774920 1653 3 1224979098644774922 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774919 2133 2 1224979098644774923 1224979098644774922 1615 3 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774920 1224979098644774922 4 0 1601 2 1224979098644774924 1224979098644774912 2147483678 2 1224979098644774924 5000 2171 2 1224979098644774925 1224979098644774920 4 0 30 2 1224979098644774925 31 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640035 5 0 30 2 1224979098644774925 26 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640034 5 0 30 2 1224979098644774925 15 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640033 5 0 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640032 3 0 1610 3 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774926 1224979098644774923 2133 2 1224979098644774917 1 3 0 3 0 3 0 4 0 1651 2 1224979098644774918 1224979098644774912 32 2 1224979098644774918 0 7 3 1224979098644774919 0 1224979098644774918 1656 3 1224979098644774920 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774919 1506 2 1224979098644774921 1224979098644774920 2147483679 2 1224979098644774921 3 2147485155 1 1224979098644774920 1657 3 1224979098644774922 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774919 4 0 30 2 1224979098644774922 2 2123 3 1224979098644774923 1224979098644774922 2 5 0 2133 2 1224979098644774923 1 3 0 1616 3 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774920 1224979098644774923 4 0 1601 2 1224979098644774924 1224979098644774912 2147483678 2 1224979098644774924 5000 2171 2 1224979098644774925 1224979098644774920 4 0 32 2 1224979098644774925 31 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640035 5 0 30 2 1224979098644774925 26 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640034 5 0 30 2 1224979098644774925 15 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640033 5 0 2133 2 1224979098644774926 360287970189640032 3 0 1610 3 1224979098644774912 1224979098644774926 1224979098644774923 2133 2 1224979098644774917 1 3 0 3 0 3 0 4 0 31 2 1224979098644774917 1 2136 3 1224979098644774927 0 100 2319 1 2 4 0 2147483678 2 1224979098644774927 14 2320 2 2 1585267068834416778 5 0 2147483678 2 1224979098644774927 28 2320 2 2 1585267068834416779 5 0 2147483678 2 1224979098644774927 42 2320 2 2 1585267068834416780 5 0 2147483678 2 1224979098644774927 56 2320 2 2 1585267068834416781 5 0 2147483678 2 1224979098644774927 70 2320 2 2 1585267068834416782 5 0 2147483678 2 1224979098644774927 84 2320 2 2 1585267068834416783 5 0 2320 2 2 1585267068834416784 3 0 1105 2 1585267068834416148 16732240 3 0 3 0

Delete the blue numbers, decrease the bold one by 43. After this tweak Eyegrim prisoners will be left untact until they become a part of his main roster => his party size grow rate shouldn't be higher than other spawns' anymore.
Nvm me, just trying to help.

sher said:
Unlocks can be passed to Three Seers to not force player to do this kiting or solo nonsense.
sher said:
Problem with unlocks (even worse this time)  that he blocks content with equipment he doesn't even use - it would be more natural if Doomguides would use these shields and Three Seers have unlocks.
I fully agree about unlocks because Netherworld Shield fits Doomguides so much.
H2HOFdt.jpg
 

sher

Baron
UndeadDuke said:
If he would convert only alive party members and not prisoners, would that solve the issue? If yes, then here is a solution:

That will help people though it would be better I think if he would grow fast but to a limit to have unique face - not quality of troops but large number and you will have to field huge host to deal with this undead horde. This way you could babysit him with kiting and soloing or you could seek cooperation of other lords to crush him with force decisively - otherwise he will resume fast conversion .

UndeadDuke said:
I fully agree about unlocks because Netherworld Shield fits Doomguides so much.
H2HOFdt.jpg

Yep, it's a simple tweak (I guess I'll add it to mine). While they were shieldless I was using golden shield valkyres are using - also looks good, but it would be better with netherworld since now it's not present in game at all and small size balances high resistance.

This way Three Seers would be about skill => equipment unlocks and Eyegrim would be just about brute force of huge undead horde without unlocks.
 

Flazz

Regular
WB
Gorvex said:
IconracI said:
@Flazz
How your friend is doing today?
@Flazz: how big is Eyegrim's party right now? Or did he get defeated? I'm curious too!
He's at about 10,000 now, as you can see. I'm on day 964, and he spawns on about day 50, so he's been here for more than 900 days. He's still growing as well, every time I go to him he's got 500 or so more troops. There doesn't seem to be any end in sight. He's become WAY more bold with attacking cities too, poor marleons and avendor are constantly switching hands because eyegrim makes sure they can't build a garrison.
 

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Gorvex

Master Knight
Noice! :lol: Could you please share your savegame sometime? I'd like to test the situation and his combat prowess :iamamoron: Thanks
 

Flazz

Regular
WB
Gorvex said:
Noice! :lol: Could you please share your savegame sometime? I'd like to test the situation and his combat prowess :iamamoron: Thanks

Sure thing! https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Uwo-j0HwpDxS_ngJWNJUA87hO0DfTj-G/view

Good luck, I would be very, very, surprised if you got anywhere near killing him. Those fallen warriors are immensely strong.
 

Gorvex

Master Knight
Thanks, hopefully I'll have some time to play during the weekend.

I'll first check what you've got. If that's not enough, then will come plan B:

Given that I used to beat the game around day 700 at max even with custom scenarios, like female-only or horseless troops, with a party size of 800+ and dozens of vassals, it would be fair imo if I'd pick a middle ground: no vassals helping me, but at least an 800 party size full of well-trained CKO and upgraded KO knights + other goodies like Hero/Heroine Adventurers. We shall see :grin:
 

sher

Baron
Flazz said:
Good luck, I would be very, very, surprised if you got anywhere near killing him. Those fallen warriors are immensely strong.

You can solo him. If you're stubborn enough and have a lot of time. Added horses will take additional time but if you could solo him before there would be no problem to do it again no matter how many troops he'll have. In theory. Question is if it's a fun and good gameplay for average PoP player.
 

Vissy

Baron
WBNW
It could be cool if these sorts of doom stacks were end game content after you've reunited Pendor (like a massive Snake Cult invasion from Amala, for instance), but it does feel like the player needs more tools at their disposal then. Such as being able to raise significantly bigger armies of their own once they are king.
 

Flazz

Regular
WB
sher said:
Flazz said:
Good luck, I would be very, very, surprised if you got anywhere near killing him. Those fallen warriors are immensely strong.

You can solo him. If you're stubborn enough and have a lot of time. Added horses will take additional time but if you could solo him before there would be no problem to do it again no matter how many troops he'll have. In theory. Question is if it's a fun and good gameplay for average PoP player.

I really doubt it. Because of the way the battle size mechanic works, even with 14 tactics, you'll only have an incredibly small amount of troops on the field. No matter how godly OP your cko units are, I highly doubt a dozen of them can beat an absurdly huge swarm of 300 fallen warriors. They'll get completely surrounded.
 

Roccoflipside

Master Knight
And sure, you'll spawn more troops in, but when you're outnumbered that bad, eventually you get surrounded or hit with enough arrows or whatever, and when you go down your screwed. Because they still have 5,000+ troops or whatever.
 

Flazz

Regular
WB
Roccoflipside said:
And sure, you'll spawn more troops in, but when you're outnumbered that bad, eventually you get surrounded or hit with enough arrows or whatever, and when you go down your screwed. Because they still have 5,000+ troops or whatever.

It's even worse because the enemy will sit on your spawn point, and the second you get reinforcements, they'll literally spawn surrounded and will immediately die.
 

Huillam

Grandmaster Knight
WB
UndeadDuke said:
If huge enemy army doesn't involve difficulty for you, then what does?
In a game like Mount & Blade, difficulty is almost non-existant after your first playthrough of any given mod.
That doesn't mean things are easy from the start (or that the game is bad) but you know what your goal is and how to reach it. There's no event that will force you to take a break and rethink your strategy. You're simply building your forces (be it soldiers, relationships or wealth) until you're ready to move to the next part of your plan.
Eyegrim in its current form represents an articial form of difficulty: by raising the number of soldiers at his side to absurd amounts it doesn't promote a smarter way of playing (quite the opposite: having a high surgery skill is seriously detrimental here), it doesn't require the player to impove his skill, it only requires a lance and a lot of patience. As it has apparently no failsafe to stop him from having more and more soldiers he'll eventually reach of point when even an army of all the lords of Pendor would flee against him.
 

Gorvex

Master Knight
Welp, I tried to beat that this 10k-sized Eyegrim two times in a row and I miserably failed:
EB4264F22C738EBF4AAD8BF9232AA2BB32202758

Sure, I was quite rusty because it's been more than a year since I last played PoP properly. And I didn't have more time than this for now. But I still managed to take down all the Fallen Revenants before going down due to being surrounded, with throwing weapons tossed at me from all directions. This can't be avoided against such odds if you have some troops on your side which disperse enemies across the map. 10k is clearly too much. Perhaps with an equal size of vassals on your side towards the very end-game. But definitely not on your own, even though you have a high quality end-game party, with nearly half being heavy horse archers, and with horse archer AI on:
03CAF0D7FC34CE5A2C7B2CDBD9FE07C2190E1F8B

Tactics was on 10+4, just to see the most optimal troop ratio, with a moderately hilly battlemap (we can call it an average one). Battlesize of 400, our side had 32 units, while the enemy had 388... This ratio was roughly kept throughout the rest of the waves until we were crushed. Fallen Revenants are already dead at this point:
67C4D261B0F871FAA0EA38F961A4EFF1366C1B24
And those fallen "trash" managed to maintain a 2:1 death ratio in their favor! As you can see, against such odds, they will storm your spawning point eventually, leaving no chance for any horse archer unit to start circling, or for heavy cavalry to do their job (ratio is too unfavorable). And then it's just a slaughterfest until your guys are dead. Those Fallen Horses and Black Swords are too much for this amount. Fallen Warriors are close to KO knight levels in terms of performance with such setup and quantity (help each other to disrupt our troops and shoot them in the back).

Even if I had a couple of vassals on my side, it couldn't have been much better, that won't be enough.

Suggestion: limit Eyegrim's party to 4-5k at max. He is a nice challenge if he can get his party to such size, but 10k is simply too much without the aid from all of your vassals (and until then, he might f*ck up your whole kingdom, getting more and more undead units)
 

King Edric

Sergeant
I do agree on limiting his party size and maybe lower his spawn rate, I took him down in my game and he came back in like 30 or so days.
 
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