Exploiting Siege Engines as a defender

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ramzamzam9

Recruit
First, I like the way, how effective siege engines are right now. Especially on defender side. It means as an attacker you have to build some too, or your towers and your ram will be destroyed in no time. Nice so far. But in combination with retreating as a defender this means you can hold any castle against any force, no matter the size. Just run to your Catapult or Balista, fire a few shots on enemy troops (not the enemy towers or the ram), knock about 100 Enemies unconcious retreat and do it again. This way you can hold any castle or town nearly without any losses. An easy way to prevent this would be just to disable retreat. Or maybe keep it enabled but making it a try to break out the castle (with heavy casualties and the possibilty of getting captured of course). It just makes no sense to retreat from an attacking enemy and they just say "ok, if you don't want to fight, we're backing up ouresevels, giving you time to man your walls again and let you repair your damn catapult." :wink:
 

Stromming

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Not really a huge issue considering how rare siege defenses are.
I have over 400 hours and only 1 siege defense. I know there are plenty of players that has never experienced a single one.

Game is bork.
 

Senko

Sergeant
Retreating in a siege defense should just lead to a Last Stand Keep Battle when they are finally added.
 

ramzamzam9

Recruit
Okay. I'm defending castles and towns the whole time. Every time a caslte or town gets attacked, I just go there, break in to help the defenders end exploit the hack out of the catapults. I belive, it's so bad, because (after +800h) I can't remember, when I last lost a castle or town. Might happen, if you have them spread out over the map and you can't reach them in time. But if you keep them close together, you just don't loose any estates anymore. And I know, there is no need to use this exploit, but hey, I like my home and am kind of weak 😅. Ruins the game for me though as it takes all the thrill.
 

Senko

Sergeant
If you have enough archers you don't even need to retreat :p
The other day i had 70 Forest Bandits in my party, they just shred through anything, getting kills in the hundreds on realistic difficulty.
The problem is the game becomes a whack a mole, enemy lords constantly raiding your village no matter if you just defeated 5 lords raiding. It never ends x3
 

ramzamzam9

Recruit
Yes, archers are op. But I belive, that will change someday. Make take some time as Balancing isn't trivial. Retreating could just be removed. For sieges maybe until we get keep battles, for field battles the fast retreat should be removed for good. I mean, there already is an order to retreat but I never used it so far. Why should I, as it comes with higher risk of casualties.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Retreating in mission should have the same results as the pre-fight "attempt to flee" option where a portion of your troops are killed/captured. @Dejan is there any notion that in mission retreating (the button, actual retreats are ok) will be looked at and fixed at some point (I understand if this is not high priority, just want to know if its on the list of fixes needed)
 
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Sigaretovic

Sergeant at Arms
I don't get you guys. How can you abuse retreating and then complain about it? If you play it like that and don't enjoy that part.. it's your own fault..
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
Okay. I'm defending castles and towns the whole time. Every time a caslte or town gets attacked, I just go there, break in to help the defenders end exploit the hack out of the catapults. I belive, it's so bad, because (after +800h) I can't remember, when I last lost a castle or town. Might happen, if you have them spread out over the map and you can't reach them in time. But if you keep them close together, you just don't loose any estates anymore. And I know, there is no need to use this exploit, but hey, I like my home and am kind of weak 😅. Ruins the game for me though as it takes all the thrill.
Well to be honest your absolutely right. I mean I can't believe you can actually retreat when your defending, I mean where could you retreat too?

The problem is that you are the exception when it comes to defending sieges. Most people think it is ridiculous to throw away 25% of your troops just to break in to defend and many times, if you do throw away those 25% of the troops, the besieging army just decides your now too strong and you give up the siege so that 25% losses end up for nothing. It is also much easier to let them capture the fief then when the leave, just retake it.

Anyway, my point is there are probably tons wrong with defending a siege like that retreat option that no one is even aware of and talking about because most of us never defend sieges. I think I have had 2 defenses in almost 400 hours of gameplay.
 

ramzamzam9

Recruit
I don't get you guys. How can you abuse retreating and then complain about it? If you play it like that and don't enjoy that part.. it's your own fault..
As I said, I'm weak. :wink: In warband I liked to play - can't remember the correct name - but something without manual saving. Meanig, if you did something, you had nothing to go back to. But I also belive, exploits can ruin a game experience. like smithing, archers and such. because you start taking risks you wouldn't take otherwise. Even the knowledge of possible exploits alters the way you play (Try Subnautica in Hard Mode and you know what I mean :wink: )
Anyway, my point is there are probably tons wrong with defending a siege like that retreat option that no one is even aware of and talking about because most of us never defend sieges. I think I have had 2 defenses in almost 400 hours of gameplay.
That's why I mentioned it. Can't hurt having as many of these things fixed as possilbe and especialy this one, even if it might be lowest priority, as it could be fixed verry easy.
And I'm not one of those guys who is realy emotional about the game. I mean, I like it a lot, but it's EA and I knew it, when I bought it. Already spend more hours in it than in many other games. So even if all of those many things that need to be fixed in my opinion, wouldn't get fixed, I'd still say "hey, we had a nice time, lets play something else" :smile:
 

Marajah

Regular
First, I like the way, how effective siege engines are right now. Especially on defender side. It means as an attacker you have to build some too, or your towers and your ram will be destroyed in no time. Nice so far. But in combination with retreating as a defender this means you can hold any castle against any force, no matter the size. Just run to your Catapult or Balista, fire a few shots on enemy troops (not the enemy towers or the ram), knock about 100 Enemies unconcious retreat and do it again. This way you can hold any castle or town nearly without any losses. An easy way to prevent this would be just to disable retreat. Or maybe keep it enabled but making it a try to break out the castle (with heavy casualties and the possibilty of getting captured of course). It just makes no sense to retreat from an attacking enemy and they just say "ok, if you don't want to fight, we're backing up ouresevels, giving you time to man your walls again and let you repair your damn catapult." :wink:

Wouldn't the problem be exploiting retreat instead of siege engines?

This is an old problem, and it's been abusable since launch. You don't even need siege engines to do it. If the defenders got a decent amount of ranged troops, you can let them kill the enemy until they reach the walls, retreat and repeat. If you are really patient, you can do it by yourself killing a few with a bow/crossbow/javelins, retreat, repeat.


They could just make retreating in sieges impossible or they could try different methods to prevent this exploit, like limited and expendable ammo. Used all your arrows? Takes some time to make some more. Can't just magically retreat and refill
 
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Retreating in mission should have the same results as the pre-fight "attempt to flee" option where a portion of your troops are killed/captured. @Dejan is there any notion that in mission retreating (the button, actual retreats are ok) will be looked at and fixed at some point (I understand if this is not high priority, just want to know if its on the list of fixes needed)
Retreating to re-set the map is an integral part of combat due all the crazy, slow and incompetent performance of all units types, in all situations.
They need to fix combat AI, armor/damage and whatever they're going to do with "order of battle" before they add a punishment or removal for retreating. Ultimately they should just require you to actually be out of combat to retreat without penalty, like in warband.

As far as siege engine abuse, the thought had crossed my mind but siege defense is horrible, it's much better to sally out!
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
Wouldn't the problem be exploiting retreat instead of siege engines?

This is an old problem, and it's been abusable since launch. You don't even need siege engines to do it. If the defenders got a decent amount of ranged troops, you can let them kill the enemy until they reach the walls, retreat and repeat. If you are really patient, you can do it by yourself killing a few with a bow/crossbow/javelins, retreat, repeat.


They could just make retreating in sieges impossible or they could try different methods to prevent this exploit, like limited and expendable ammo. Used all your arrows? Takes some time to make some more. Can't just magically retreat and refill

I just think they need to eliminate being able to retreat in a siege defense. I mean your in a castle, surrounded by the enemy, where the hell are you supposed to retreat to?
 
I just think they need to eliminate being able to retreat in a siege defense. I mean your in a castle, surrounded by the enemy, where the hell are you supposed to retreat to?
Lol +1, pretty much this, I get being able to do it in the field but not when I'm in a castle.

As an aside, I think there should be a penalty if you use the Retreat option with troops lost similar to how it was in Warband / breaking into a siege defense. Unless the player does an "organized retreat" by fleeing to the edge of battle, then they control ultimately how many will die. Given how stupid the AI is with disengaging, you'll be bound to take losses all the same.
 

Dejan

Community Manager
WBNWVCM&B
We're aware of the retreating exploit and will be looking into it but it's not a current priority.
 
Please leave some exploits/cheese mechanics.
you can use cheats or play on easy difficulty... the less exploits the better. When game is exploitable people with no self-control will do it and it ruins the game experience. I see no good reason to leave exploits in a game
 
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