SP Native Expanded Native Mod (now with screenshots!)

[Cirdan]

Vaegirs are Russians here eh?

Kievian Rus'. I wouldn't dare to call them Russians, or else I might have a squad of burly Ukrainian nationalists knocking on my front door. I wouldnt call them Ukrainians, though--IMO there wasn't any divide between Russian and Ukrainian until well after the imposition of the "Tatar Yolk".

Here's some advice:
-Vaegirs are supposed to be a multicultural society. Where are the levies?
I suggest that Vaegir forces should rely heavily on nord and steppe mercenaries, something in the line of Varangians and kozaks.

Yes, the Vaegirs shall hire steppe mercenaries, especially from the tribes displaced by the Khergit invasion in fact now that you make me thing of it, I might want to set up some camps of displaced nomads in Vaegir territory. There will be very little Nords though, since the Vaegirs no longer trust them. However, Nord influence should be evident in their heavy infantry.

-Why do Sweadians have women warriors and Vaegirs not?
Russian women are some of the most manly women in the world (but in a good way).

Well, Russian women were pretty much confined to the terem until the 17th century, weren't they? I imagine Vaegir women being more cloistered, and Swadian female warriors are already far from being the norm. There will still be faction-neutral female mercenaries, of course, but rarer than their male counterparts. Also, there could be some female troops in the steppe mercenaries working with the Vaegirs.

-Also, why do Sweadians have more kinds of troops then anyone else?

Because of the female troops--the Vaegir and Swadian troop trees actually do parallel each other otherwise. But the Vaegirs will have more access to steppe mercenaries, which should balance things out.

-Lastly, history shows us that multicultural and religious societies don't mix, the Sweadians sound allot more traditional and religious ( with all these secret orders and traditions ) then the Vaegirs whos kingdom existed for only 200-300 yers. Just wanted to point that out.

The Vaegirs aren't really multicultural--they result from a mixing of various cultures, but they have evolved their own specificities. Again, think Kievian Rus'--we don't really know when the first proto-slavic groups appeared, but they mixed with Scytho-Sarmations, Finns/Balts, Varangians (i.e. Scandinavians--although the actual RUs may have been themselve Slavs, regardless of Nestor calling them varangians in the Chronicle of Bygone Years) and even Türkic peoples (Pechenegs,Polovtsy) to create what would become Russia and Ukraine. I'd rather not get involved in a Slavic/Western Europe debate, and I while I mean to portray the Swadians as somewhat more pragmatic and adaptable than the Vaegirs, they aren't devoid of conservatism either

PS: Troops should be replenished every weak, the number should depend on the battle size.
And (obviously) nobles should replenish alot slower then serfs.

Have the troop supply replenish entirely in one week? Could be a good idea, since it would make for relatively easy replacement of troops. Might make it to hard to gut a faction's military strength, though--and make losses inconsequential for the player. I'll give it a spin, when I've got a beta-releasable version ready.


Nebuchadnezzar: glad you like my ideas

TIK: I'm not sure I get your meaning. Boyars and such are the Vaegir's elite; generally the Vaegirs are more quantity-orientated than the Swadians--especially their rural troops--but their higher tier troops are still very much elites.


Also, I'm thinking of adding in some noncombattant support troops. These could be anything from cooks to armoursmiths (not to mention, of course, the prostitutes which are bound to follow armies around), although I'd try to keep them as generic as possible. During battles, they would not praticipate (in modder's terms, they would be transferred to a dummy party before the fight starts), although they might get hurt or captured if you lose or are forced to retreat. I think something like that has been suggested on the suggestion boards actually, but what do you people think?

 

[Valentin the II]

Cirdan, your one of the more intelligent people I've seen on the internet, respect.
Flattery aside:
I think there should be 3-4 main "mercenary trees" (based on the regions culture) : Regular merc's, Nord merc's, steppe merc's and roddock merc's.
The regulars should probably be used by Swedians vaegirs.
The nords by Swedians and Nords.
The steppe merc's by Vaegirs and Khergit's.
And the roddocks by Rhoddocks and Khergits.
But mercs are neutral so if captured they'll surve anyone.
Also caravans will use any merc's they can find, so for instance: a vaegir caravan that visits Tullga will replenish its loses with steppe merc's.

About the "replenishment time": I think that basic troops like serfs should totally replenish in 2, the urbans in 3 and nobles in 4 weeks.
But the first troops should appear after a week.
So in a week half of the serfs have been replenished but only 1/3 of the urbans...
And that's the basic troops, every tier higher then that should replenish twice as slow.

About your new idea:
That'll be hard to implement.
How will you prevent them from joining the battle?
Also, they will clutter the party screen (for some reason, I hate that).

Lastly: Will you be using new weapons from other mods? (I hope so )

New idea!
Can you edit the manage options? If yes Ill post it later.

But that's my opinion.
GL with the mod.

 

[Spawn Of Achilles]

Well, I look forward to seeing this mod in my dropdown bar!
Good luck!

 

[Valentin the II]

Here's an idea of how to balance cavalry units:
Just increase their maintenance cost.
Maintaining a horse isn't cheap you know.

(sory if Im posting the obvious)

 

[greger287]

First off let me say that this mod sounds great. The thread thus far has actually dragged me out of years (nearly two) of simply reading to actually make a post. Keep up the work.

Your history makes a good deal of sense as it is. I like the idea of of the pesky Nords who simply refuse to go home. It opens up some great rivalries between them and the sulking Veagirs.

The Swadians appear to have circled what's left of their wagons, which in my mind was always the story that seemed to play out in Native anyway. They're clearly one of the most advanced and regimented of the kingdoms, yet they're in a position which comes under constant fire from everywhere at once. This seems indicative of a very hard fall from grace to lead to their decline. The one oddity I've found in your history was actually how intact Swadia still is. As the story plays out they get their **** ruined from a number of very powerful enemies (if you'll pardon the expression). They lose their empire along with what must have been a majority of their economy and probably an untold number of men, both noble and common in the failed defense of their holdings. Yet their troop tree and society breakdowns seem to paint an unscathed picture of the once mighty kingdom. It's almost as if they're come through without noticing the loss. I've always liked to play with the Swadian's with a picture of them as a broken sort of kingdom. I imagined them as a parallel to some lost outpost of the Roman empire, suddenly without support from home and now desperately trying to hold off the population they so long encroached upon themselves.

Anyway, I got a little carried away there. I originally wanted to post about the Rhodocks.

Everyone's favorite obscure "blue guys" kingdom. The way I think they might make sense is as a conglomeration of sorts. The scale of the Swadian empire as you described it lends itself to an independent economic entity. Trading houses, guilds, rudimentary banks and so forth. Basically all the noble families that evolved caring more about coins then land or fashionable affairs of court. The Rhodocks seem like a good choice to represent these families after the fall of the empire (think of the numerous banking families that arose during the dark ages and beyond to fill the vacuum of unified economies). These Rhodocks would have had the money to raise the armies as well as the bargaining chips to broker peace with the newly recognized states. They could present an interesting, nearly neutral faction to add into the mix. With some tweaks the armies could be very professional and extremely defensive (bigger, richer caravans, but nasty guards) and their cities made to be major trading and crafting centers. Relations with other states would be varied as well. Many of the families can trace their lineages back to Swadia, but the Veagirs have coin just the same and as long as they keep the peace who's to say who's right? The Nords are more the reaver type and so will have less use for the merchants and very possibly mistrust the shady dealings that become part of everyday Rhodock (Rhodockian?) life. The Khergits would have a similar stance with them, though as a nomadic scavenger people (as I understood them so far) they would owe a certain livelihood to the Rhodock caravans as a source of plunder (sort of like farming them).

So there are my suggestions to what is already a great start to fleshing out the world a lot more.
Again, I really like the direction this is headed so keep up the good work.

 

[Llew2]

Your history makes a good deal of sense as it is. I like the idea of of the pesky Nords who simply refuse to go home. It opens up some great rivalries between them and the sulking Veagirs.

Sulking Veagirs?! I am offended!

 

[Valentin the II]

@reger: I think Zendar would be a much better choice for the "merchant nation"
They are at peace with everyone, near the sea, they are perfact.
They really remind me of Venice.

Oh, and during the fall of the Vaegirs the Swedians probably got some of their lands back.
With the better living conditions and the fact that they were the rightfull rulers of most of the lands would  make it pretty easy to lure some of their former subjects back.

 

[The_Invincible_Knight]

The old Swadian kingdom (note use of the word kingdom since he is King Harlaus, not Emperor Harlaus ) would have found it easy to lure back many of their former people with the promises of wealth and glory.

After all I chose the Swadians mainly because they didin't badmouth the Vaegirs all that much in .808 when they were trying to recruit me. They lured me with promises of glory and spoils (I have to outfit my buddies after all!)

The Vaegirs seemed to slander the Swadians more...

Sorry; went off on a bit of a tangeant there...

 

[Ingolifs]

Ingolifs:I love your assumption that I'm even aware of your idea. I just had a look around the King's Court/Privy Council and didn't see any thread you might have made about it

You've played lombard leagues, right? I'm sure i've seen you on the boards.
Anyway, I was the one who suggested that the troop trees in LL be split up into common and noble tiers.

 

[Cirdan]

Ingolifs: nope, Lombard Leagues is one of those mods that sound interesting, but that I've never tried.  I've certainly never been on the LL forums. To be honest I would have been somewhat surprised to fin that no-body had ever considered making separate troop trees for the nobles; after all, it wasn't exactly common for a farmer to be knighted(there are a handful of cases like that--but pretty much, to earn a knighthood a commoner would have to save the King's life in a spectacularly heroic fashion), even if he was an extremely good warrior.

Vilhjalmr, Spawn of Achilles: thank you

Greger287: thank you very much. I feel flattered to have drawn you out of your...lurker-dom? Is there a word for that?

The Swadians would compare to Byzantium more than to the Western Roman Empire, really. They've taken some hard knocks and lost more than many kingdoms ever ruled, but their fate isn't sealed yet and they'll fight hard to survive and even try to regain their former holdings. Like Valentin the II pointed out, when the Nords betrayed the Vaegirs, the Swadians obtained a breather; in a way, they're also more resilient now that they've been brought down to only their core lands, since they are now culturally homogeneous and don't have to worry about ruling foreign peoples.

That said, I didn't mean to portray their society as being mostly unaffected; the villeins, as I tried to convey in their description, are a fairly new class, who have gained in importance largely due to two factors. Firstly, the constraints due to the war make it harder to control a large servile populations in the countryside, and secondly, with their attention drawn away from their estates, Swadian nobles appreciate more the fixed income that villeins guarantee them, rather than the more variable income they get from serfs--even though, if they invested enough in developping their lands and organising production, they could wrangle more money out of the serfs. The second big change that I see the Swadians going through, is a rise in the importance of women, at least among the nobles. With many men being killed in battle, more and more estates are falling into female hands; and, as Swadian law dictates that landowners fight, this means that women are more often found as warriors, so that the Swadian noble women's fighting traditions have been revived and strengthened. In turn, this entails that the daughters of Swadian nobility receive a more warlike education, blurring the division between gender roles.. Potentially, this could have major effects on the development of Swadian society.

As you have pointed out, the Rhodocks of Native are essentially the "blue guys" kingdom. Your suggestion has merit--representing them as conglomeration of traders, bankers and such who stayed out of the war when things fell apart. The main problem here is that Zendar does fit the role better; rather than leaving it as the "generic first town", I'm turning it into a real neutral faction. The Zendarians have their own troop tree which I'm working on, and it will even be possible to join them--although since their goal is to stay out of the war, it won't be very interesting for the average M&B character. The Zendarians will have a late medieval banking system worked out (and hopefully I'll figure a way to make this useful and useable by the player). Zendar itself I will try to represent as a truly cosmopolitan city, run as a merchant republic.

The Rhodocks I would like to simply replace, preferably with a Middle Eastern looking faction; but at current I lack models to make such a faction look right in game. The other solution is to make the Rhodocks into some kind of tribal, semi-barbaric borderlands faction.

Valentin the II: Two people flattering me! I am at risk of ego swelling!
Regarding mercs, I had already determined to make them come in various flavours, each with a recruitment zone. Berserkir mercenaries will be recruited in the three cities held by the Nords and Praven, Curaw, and Zendar. There will also be freshly-arrived Nords offering their services as mercenaries in the ports of Wercheg and Tihr. 'Calradian' (i.e. generic) mercenaries will be recruitable everywhere; they'll look more like the Swadians than like any other faction, since the long Swadian hegemony has left its mark on most of Calradia's people, but they'll still be quite heterogeneous. Steppe mercenaries will be recruitable in the East and South-East, mainly in Vaegr and in the Khergit-controlled areas. And another mercenary group, Desert Mercenaries, will be recruitable in the South-West corner of the map.

For the mercenary troop trees, I'm basing myself on a three-tier system which is deliberately different from the four tiers of the regular faction troops (except, of course, the berserkir, who are already fully upgraded, and the Nords who are the same as the regular faction troops).  As an example, and without descriptions, here's a quick look at what the Steppe Mercs use:

Steppe Horseman->Mercenary Horse Archer-->Heavy Horse Archer
                        ->Steppe Mercenary        -->Heavy Steppe Mercenary
                                                            -->Steppe Lancer

The Steppe Mercenary units are armed with throwing and melee weapons, and the Lancer is a pure heavy cavalry unit. There would also be a female line--when I have time, I'll limit its availability and make it correspond to certain tribes only.

Your idea of having the Merchant Caravans use local mercenaries is excellent, I'll add it to my "to do" list.

For the replenishment time, I'd rather have nobles and commoners replenish at the same speed--there will already be much more commoners than nobles. I might change it if it seems to easy to accumulate more noble troops than it should be possible to raise, however.


Preventing noncombatants from joining the battle would be really, really easy--as I said, they'd be stored in a dummy party during fights. I doubt that all noncombatant-related scripts put together would require more than about 50 lines of code, versus about 300 for the script that replenishes Swadian villages with troops. Cluttering the party management screen would be more troublesome, but even if I do add them, no-one will be forced to use them

I will be using a few models borrowed form other mods; how many depends on how many modders give me permission to use their stuff.

Oh, and I can edit the village/castle management menu, if that's waht you mean.




I'm aiming to get a releasable test build done by the end of the week. It won't be complete by any stretch of the imagination, but it will be enough to give people an idea of what's to come, and of course, I'm sure that there will (unfortunately) be bugs to be hunted down and mercilessly squished.
I'd also very much like to enlist the help of any interested modelers and texturers, and anyone who's good at scene editing.

 

[James]

Think we can get any screenies with my items?

 

[Ingolifs]

Ingolifs: nope, Lombard Leagues is one of those mods that sound interesting, but that I've never tried.  I've certainly never been on the LL forums. To be honest I would have been somewhat surprised to fin that no-body had ever considered making separate troop trees for the nobles; after all, it wasn't exactly common for a farmer to be knighted(there are a handful of cases like that--but pretty much, to earn a knighthood a commoner would have to save the King's life in a spectacularly heroic fashion), even if he was an extremely good warrior.

Fair enough then. Let's just put it down to good idea rule #3. If you come up with a good idea, Ingolifs thought of it first.

 

[Cirdan]

Think we can get any screenies with my items?

yes. Soon, maybe even later today

Ingolifs:Well, if you need to compensate for something, I won't rain on your parade

 

[Valentin the II]

So you can modify the upgrades eh?
Here's another idea: You could putta new upgrade- barracks (or something similar) both in castles and fiefs.
It will have 3 levels. For each level the controller of the fief/castle will be able to recruit troops of a higher tier.
So for instance: With no barracks he will recruit only 1st tier troops but with level3 barracks he will be able to recruit troops from all tiers.
To balance things out 2nd and 3d tier troops will replenish once every two weeks and 4th tier once every 3 weeks (training time).
Also these buildings could effect the Garrison of the fief/castle.
For a higher level of barracks they will get more, better armed troops in the Garrison.

Also Iv got a good idea how you can both get the black knights back and give Zendar a storyline at the same time.
But its peaty long, so I wont post it unless someone actually wants to hear it.

 

[Cirdan]

More screenshots can't be wrong, or can they?
A big axe, courtesy of James.

This guy's a Viking. Helmet, shield, axe and spear by James.

And here's a general melee, Nords fighting off steppe mercenaries in a village.

Hmmph...I should use a higher quality settings on my jpegs, maybe.

Valentin the II: I don't think building a barracks in every village would be very realistic for most factions. However, having a an armoury in castles and a militia barracks in cities would be a good idea. And, ideas can't hurt

 

[Valentin the II]

Why not?
Maybe it wont be a barrack, but a mustering hall or a blacksmith were not uncommon in villages.
We really need some building to make the Garrison in the villages stronger.
Also, the ability to Garrison troops in your fiefs would be nice.

About the black/doom knights:
"Long ago, when the swedian empire was at its prime, many military orders were created, one of them was Ravenguard.
Ravenguard was special, unlike the other orders it didn't focus on chivalry and didn't parade around the cities.
Infact, they were a secretive organisation that resembled a cult more then a knightly order, and there was nothing chivalrous about them.
Ravenguard Was founded by the swedian emperor, its purpose: suppress rebelions at all cost, no witnesses, no survivors.
The emperor that already had problems controlling all of his lands didn't want rebel uprisings and rumors of their bloody put-downs  to destabilize the empire even more, thus the Ravenguard had to stay secret, and witneses of its brutality silenced.
Of-course, ordinary men would not fit the role of dark guardians, so the emperor had to find warriors in special places, namely: prisons.
Prisoners sentenced to death were given a second chance, in return they gave a solom oath to surve the emperor till their death.

Ravenguard was a great success, the organisation grew in power and brutality.
Some veterans of the Ravenguard started losing their minds and their true colours began to show.
Many became fond of death blood and gore, prisoners were killed in bloody rituals and even dead bodies were mutilated by some perverted minds.
Rumors began to spread of a bloody cult employed by the emperor, needless to say that this didn't go down well with the emperors subjects.
The wise ruler masked the accusations of his subjects by announcing the creation of a new order that will keep the peace in Swedia and protect the people from any diabolic cults.

And so "Ravenguard" became "Sunbare", a grand master was announced and was given a castle to surve as the orders base of operations. The order could  no longer put down uprisings
But they found another way to quench their thirst for blood.
The peasants wanted cultists? The sunbarerers gave them cultists.
Sunbare was sent to rebellious towns and villages to find rebel leaders and supporters and make them confess.
They especially enjoyed the confession part, with all their torture devices and instruments of pain they were a force to be recond. Sometimes whole villages were found guilty of heretical activity the punishment for wich was only one: Exterminatus.

And what do you know? The bloody slaughters were stopped.
Sunbare has become one of the most feared and respected orders in Swedia and its grand master a very influential man..."

TO BE CONTINUED

If you liked that, Ill post the rest of the story later.

PS: If you see a Warhammer motive here, your not the only one. 

 

[James]

I like the pics.

 

[Dryvus]

Holy awesome. This looks great.

 

[The_Invincible_Knight]

This is going to be an awesome mod.

Could you find a way to garrison fiefdoms, please? (It would make this an even more awesome mod...)

 

[Valentin the II]

Also, some more characters in taverns would be nice.
Like scholars that for a pint of med would tell you the history of a certain faction. (Why waste all this precious background you worked on).
Smugglers that give you missions (like sneaking illegal items into towns), or sell you contraband.
Jobless cooks, merchants, prostitutes etc... That you could add to your army. (it was your idea)
The barman could tell you precious information like where you could find certain persons (like smugglers).
Maybe even spitfull nobles that give you missions to kill certain nobles that got on their nerves (duke "so and so" is going to be on a hunting trip near Rivacheg for several days, accompanied by his bodyguards, if you manage to dispose of him you'll be greatly reworded).

What do you think?