MP Everything wrong with kicking

[Noudelle]

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Merged with "make kicking like warband" by @shatti , his OP starts here

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The problems:
- The stun period on a kicked opponent is too short to take advantage of with the vast majority of weapons.
- Kicks can push an enemy too far away for some weapons to successfully land a hit during the stun period.
- The cooldown period between each kick is slightly too long for it to feel responsive to use.
- There is an inexplicable cooldown period between getting your attack blocked and being able to kick that interferes with kick timing.
- Kicks cannot be executed while holding attacks.
- Kicks cannot be executed while blocking.
- Kicks can be executed nearly instantly. In the event that kicks are ever made useful, this will be an issue.

The solutions:
- Increase the stun period of a kicked character.
- Decrease the pushback inflicted on a kicked character.
- Decrease the cooldown period between each kick
- Remove the cooldown period between getting your attack blocked and being able to kick.
- Allow kicks to be executed while attacking.
- Allow kicks to be executed while blocking.
- Decrease the speed at which kicks can be executed.

Note: The hitbox of kicks does not seem to be affected by which foot kicks are executed with.

At the moment, kicking is so worthless that it might as well not be in the game. Kicking is a mechanic that drastically increased the skill celing of Warband, and its practical removal in Bannerlord is part of the reason why combat is such a snoozer. There is no way of getting behind a turtling opponent's defenses. Allow good players to use kicks to their advantage and deepen the combat beyond left-click/right-click. This is especially frustrating considering the insane durability of all shields in the game.

Please fix.

 

[rwX]

Agreed

 

[Squirrelfart]

Wait, stances don't effect kick hitboxes? Bit of a pleasant surprise. Not by much though, kicking is useless and needs to be desperately fixed. Right now it's more useful for archers than it is for melee, with them being able to instantly headshot enemies from the (very, very short) kickstun, while melee weapons can't even followup frequently.

 

[sniparsexe]

+1, same for shield bashes

 

[gopat]

+1, same for shield bashes

I think shield bashes should stay how they are at the moment, they're more about freeing up space and pushing opponents back rather than stunning them.
Kicks should be harder to pull off and reap a better reward.

 

[DeLaitre]

I think shield bashes should stay how they are at the moment, they're more about freeing up space and pushing opponents back rather than stunning them.
Kicks should be harder to pull off and reap a better reward.

I like this, because whatever happens I think that the two mechanics should provide different utility. It would be silly to have two utility actions that have the same results.

 

[sniparsexe]

I think shield bashes should stay how they are at the moment, they're more about freeing up space and pushing opponents back rather than stunning them

yeah maybe you are right, 2 different actions but the result is same, that would be weird

 

[MeleeSlaaneshFnE]

+1

 

[Welcome_To_Hell]

The hitbox is too small because if you look through the XML file, adult characters collision capsules are the same radius as of the child characters. I am guessing this is due to the AI pathfinding / getting stuck on maps / seigetowers and ladders.

Do not agree with everything, i think the new "bash" mechanic should be replacing the Warbands kick in terms of stun lock.

I see kicking as more of a tactical method of pushing people off castle wall ledges, out of doorways and disabling shields holding a static place, and opponents face hugging, not a "win" tactic to sneak in an unblockable hit:
- Increase. Modify the stun period of a kicked character --> Based on the difference in attackers / defenders momentum
- Decrease. Modify the pushback inflicted on a kicked character. --> Based on the difference in attackers / defenders momentum
- Decrease the cooldown period between each kick (by quite a bit, should be same at bash or smaller around 1 second from current 3) +1
- Remove the cooldown period between getting your attack blocked and being able to kick. +1
- Allow kicks to be executed while attacking. --> Don't think this make any sense. Only while the attack is in "Ready Position" not while the swing is underway. Not while ready with thrown, not while bow drawn or crossbow aiming.
- Allow kicks to be executed while blocking. +1 (No clue why this got removed from Warband)
- Decrease Increase the speed at which kicks can be executed. --> Makes no sense to me kicks already stop you dead in place, if anything they should be 20% faster.

 

[Biyonik]

Honestly I dont see a point of kicking in bannerlord. In warband it was a move than when executed properly would most of the times grant you a hit but if you missed it you could be hit easily.

 

[EvgenS]

Honestly I dont see a point of kicking in bannerlord. In warband it was a move than when executed properly would most of the times grant you a hit but if you missed it you could be hit easily.

kick+hit in BL works a bit differently but also "when executed properly would most of the times grant you a hit".
In addition, BL kick is much quicker and is easier to land. Also, after BL kick you recover much faster, so it is far less risky than in Warband.

Just take any weapon with speed around 90 and practice timing. You may also practice it in the single player arena. Timing skill is more forgiving there but the technique to learn it is the same.

 

[mrArgentum]

kick+hit in BL works a bit differently but also "when executed properly would most of the times grant you a hit".
In addition, BL kick is much quicker and is easier to land. Also, after BL kick you recover much faster, so it is far less risky than in Warband.

Just take any weapon with speed around 90 and practice timing. You may also practice it in the single player arena. Timing skill is more forgiving there but the technique to learn it is the same.

Don't teach them. Everything is alright with kick in this game. No need any changes. You are allowed to hit after kick if you do right. You can see it on my streams or videos.

 

[Biyonik]

Don't teach them. Everything is alright with kick in this game. No need any changes. You are allowed to hit after kick if you do right. You can see it on my streams or videos.

If thats the case its literally a no risk high reward move which needs to be changed still

 

[z00t]

I covered this one briefly as well, and again, have to agree!

This was my take on the current situation:

With current combat speeds in multiplayer, Kicks and Shield-Bashes are utterly worthless. These are a major missing component to the rock, paper, scissors dynamic that would help round out and make Melee combat more interesting and less dragged out. Increase the stun and decrease the fallback on both of these, so follow-ups to them actually provide a positive result. Another option would be to make the Kick more on the fallback side to create a gap, less on the stun side; and shield/hilt bashes less fallback, more stun to make way for an open hit.

As I pointed out in my assessment; I believe the worthlessness of kicking/shield-bashing in multiplayer is primarily due to the combat speed difference from Single-player to Multi-player. The slower speed of MP simply does not support the originally intended timings of kick/bash + attack. The only way to efficiently take advantage of these moves in their current form is in a 2v1 or greater scenario- where your kick/bash is complemented by another players attack. While I like the idea of promoting some teamplay and comboing through this method- it does relegate them to only being useful in those specific scenarios- when they should be helping to flesh out the Rock/Paper/Scissor dynamic that is sorely needed to round out melee combat (And put an end to turtles)

I'd personally like to see both of these attacks eventually come to a point of having different benefits/reasons for use:

• Kicks should cause a larger knockback (gap opener)
• Shield-bashes should cause a slightly longer stun, enough to provide an opening for at least 1 attack (stun-lock)

This way, instead of having two means to the same end, you now provide the player with the option of either giving breathing room and/or an avenue of escape, or to bash at a chance for a stun and offensive opportunity.

 

[EvgenS]

kick has enough stun time currently to land a hit with 85-90 speed weapon, no need to increase further kick stun and make it OP.
Just practice and learn timing

 

[z00t]

kick has enough stun time currently to land a hit with 85-90 speed weapon, no need to increase further kick stun and make it OP.
Just practice and learn timing

How many weapons have 90 spd?

And how is providing the "scissors" melee component to only to the fastest weapons in the game balanced? It's already disgusting what people do with the fastest weapons.

Also, I would love to see a video example of performing a stun + attack in multiplayer with said weapons successfully & consistently.

 

[flavberg]

How many weapons have 90 spd?

And how is providing the "scissors" melee component to only to the fastest weapons in the game balanced? It's already disgusting what people do with the fastest weapons.

Also, I would love to see a video example of performing a stun + attack in multiplayer with said weapons successfully & consistently.

It's true, it's possible to kick and swing, but you require mainly fast one-hander weapons, and you need to click your left mouse button as soon as your foot goes into the enemy. Is it possible? Yes, but definitely not ideal.

 

[EvgenS]

How many weapons have 90 spd?

Lots of them. 1h swords, maces, axes, spears, javs have 85+ speed

 

[Sirwalterhorstsock]

Lots of them. 1h swords, maces, axes, spears, javs have 85+ speed

I don’t really love the idea of only a couple weapons being viable due to weapon speed being the best stat by far

 

[Zeimer]

The problems:
- The stun period on a kicked opponent is too short to take advantage of.
- Kicks can push an enemy too far away for some weapons to succesfully land a hit during the stun period.
- The cooldown period between each kick is slightly too long.
- There is an inexplicable cooldown period between getting your attack blocked and being able to kick that interferes with kick timing.
- Kicks cannot be executed while holding attacks.
- Kicks cannot be executed while blocking.
- Kicks can be executed nearly instantly. In the event that kicks are ever made useful, this will be an issue.

The solutions:
- Increase the stun period of a kicked character.
- Decrease the pushback inflicted on a kicked character.
- Decrease the cooldown period between each kick
- Remove the cooldown period between getting your attack blocked and being able to kick.
- Allow kicks to be executed while attacking.
- Allow kicks to be executed while blocking.
- Decrease the speed at which kicks can be executed.

Note: The hitbox of kicks does not seem to be affected by which foot kicks are executed with.

At the moment, kicking is so worthless that it might as well not be in the game. Kicking is a mechanic that drastically increased the skill celing of Warband, and its practical removal in Bannerlord is part of the reason why combat is such a snoozer. There is no way of getting behind a turtling opponent's defenses. Allow good players to use kicks to their advantage and deepen the combat beyond left-click/right-click. This is especially frustrating considering the insane durability of all shields in the game.

Please fix.

Actually kicking is not a thing in HEMA or real world. Remove it all together.