Elephants

[Honved]

Birds btw used to be a big part on the battlefields. The scavenger birds were feasting after every battle.

Probably not until the victors, and then the scavengers and looters, got through stripping the bodies of anything worth carrying.  Battles weren't common enough in any one spot for the birds to develop a sense of expectation of a feast afterwards, so they wouldn't be any more likely than usual to hang around the area while the fighting was going on, if they weren't scared off by it.  It would likely be a while (hours at the minimum, or probably a day or more) before they started to collect and congregate on the abandoned carnage in serious numbers, and only if the victors didn't conduct a hasty burial or a massive funeral pyre to avoid the spread of disease.

 

[Roccoflipside]

Birds btw used to be a big part on the battlefields. The scavenger birds were feasting after every battle.

That's how America ended up with the bald eagle as our bird/symbol. Eagles would fly over the battlefields of the Revolutionary War, hoping to scavenge the field after the battle was done, and the soldiers took that to be a symbol of defiance and freedom rather than just opportunistic hunger.

If elephants are included at some point, I figure there should be a couple of attack types the player can control the elephant to do, which could also be implemented for horses/camels, i.e. rearing, kicking, etc. It would be interesting to see different ways for cav to defend themselves outside of running away or hoping to kill everyone in a group before they can get you.

Birds btw used to be a big part on the battlefields. The scavenger birds were feasting after every battle.

Probably not until the victors, and then the scavengers and looters, got through stripping the bodies of anything worth carrying.  Battles weren't common enough in any one spot for the birds to develop a sense of expectation of a feast afterwards, so they wouldn't be any more likely than usual to hang around the area while the fighting was going on, if they weren't scared off by it.  It would likely be a while (hours at the minimum, or probably a day or more) before they started to collect and congregate on the abandoned carnage in serious numbers, and only if the victors didn't conduct a hasty burial or a massive funeral pyre to avoid the spread of disease.

I believe the birds would tend to follow armies on the march, or at least gather around them while they did move. Rotten food, corpses (mostly of animals, but perhaps humans too), and other food sources would be left behind by a travelling army/war band, and these would become sources of food for the birds. Of course, this is almost all speculation, based mostly on the references to eagles, crows, and other birds' flying around battlefields being used as evidence of omens of the gods' favor/displeasure.

 

[Harmi]

Probably not until the victors, and then the scavengers and looters, got through stripping the bodies of anything worth carrying.  Battles weren't common enough in any one spot for the birds to develop a sense of expectation of a feast afterwards, so they wouldn't be any more likely than usual to hang around the area while the fighting was going on, if they weren't scared off by it.  It would likely be a while (hours at the minimum, or probably a day or more) before they started to collect and congregate on the abandoned carnage in serious numbers, and only if the victors didn't conduct a hasty burial or a massive funeral pyre to avoid the spread of disease.

Yeah, probably not during battle, but after it, there would be a huge flock of birds eating flesh. They would start gathering and flying around even during the battle. They are smart animals and they can call their kind to the feast if it seems like that somewhere is much free food.

Battlefields also are huge areas and there is no way for anyone to prevent them to do so. No one alive would care about some birds even during the battle who are doing fast "attacks" and collecting something from ground and then when people are too close, they move to next corpse. Basically, this is how the birds are doing at highways. When car is near they fly away but come back right when the car is far enough. The birds also are the least of the worries of soldiers when they are fighting for their lives.

 

[NPC99]

Warband mod CWE crows (vertex animated scene props):

 

[Lord Brutus]

A little bit of clarification on the use of elephants in warfare:

Elephants and camels were initially used to frighten cavalry, since the horses were unfamiliar with them and wouldn't go anywhere near them.  Once the armies encountered them, they started raising a few of their own to get their horses familiar with the sight.  Problem solved.

Elephants were also potentially useful for disrupting a battle line, but there were a few complications.  The elephants were initially controllable, but once they took injury, they tended to try to escape.  If no visible escape path was available, they then tended to crash through the lines with a lot of carnage.  The danger was that the elephants might turn around to escape, and then crash through your own lines, so the handlers were typically provided with spikes and mallets to sever the spinal cords of the elephants before that "worst case" situation occurred.  After a few generations of such warfare (during the wars of Alexander's successors), infantry started practicing opening lanes through their ranks for the elephants to pass through, which the elephants were more than happy to make use of.  At that point, the use of elephants on the battlefield became far less successful.

Meanwhile, the use of African Forest elephants in warfare resulted in them being captured and removed from their habitat to the point of extinction.  Various cultures tried taming the larger and more aggressive African Plains elephants, but that proved impossible except with young and barely useful specimens.  The Indian elephants didn't have the temperament to attack, and simply ran away at the first excuse, again making them relatively useless in combat except as a moving archery platform.

Caesar apparently brought a small number of elephants and camels to the British Isles, because the native troops had never encountered them before, and their horses were terrified of them.  They had long ceased to be practical on the field of battle elsewhere in the West, although they continued in use as mobile archery platforms in the East up until only a couple of centuries ago, and as "military engineering vehicles" for heavy lifting into the 20th Century.

Caesar?  Julius Caesar?  How is that relevant to Bannerlord, being 900 years before the time frame?  And the East you're talking about is Vietnam and Cambodia. 

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Elephants are used to break apart entire army formations in large pitched battles. But the moshpits we've seen so far are already so broken that elephants wouldn't make any sense. Unless bannerlord completely overhauls the strategic combat to be more cohesive like total war, having elephants is a good way to make the game look goofy as hell.

 

[kalarhan]

Caesar?  Julius Caesar?  How is that relevant to Bannerlord, being 900 years before the time frame? 

read the factions blogs. Devs are focusing on about 6th-11th period for the main stuff, but also willing to take stuff from other periods for inspiration. So Bannerlord doesnt have a set period of time at all. Furthermore, each faction has its own main time reference, so you can have a faction from the ~11th century and one from the ~6th century in Bannerlord world.

I dont think elephants would fit Bannerlord, but talking about how they are out of the period is not a strong argument anymore. It could work a year ago, before we had more details on factions.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Caesar?  Julius Caesar?  How is that relevant to Bannerlord, being 900 years before the time frame? 

read the factions blogs. Devs are focusing on about 6th-11th period for the main stuff, but also willing to take stuff from other periods for inspiration. So Bannerlord doesnt have a set period of time at all. Furthermore, each faction has its own main time reference, so you can have a faction from the ~11th century and one from the ~6th century in Bannerlord world.

I dont think elephants would fit Bannerlord, but talking about how they are out of the period is not a strong argument anymore. It could work a year ago, before we had more details on factions.

Despite your waffling about time periods, elephants are as out of place in Bannerlord as light sabers. 

 

[Sarin]

A little bit of clarification on the use of elephants in warfare:

Elephants and camels were initially used to frighten cavalry, since the horses were unfamiliar with them and wouldn't go anywhere near them.  Once the armies encountered them, they started raising a few of their own to get their horses familiar with the sight.  Problem solved.

Elephants were also potentially useful for disrupting a battle line, but there were a few complications.  The elephants were initially controllable, but once they took injury, they tended to try to escape.  If no visible escape path was available, they then tended to crash through the lines with a lot of carnage.  The danger was that the elephants might turn around to escape, and then crash through your own lines, so the handlers were typically provided with spikes and mallets to sever the spinal cords of the elephants before that "worst case" situation occurred.  After a few generations of such warfare (during the wars of Alexander's successors), infantry started practicing opening lanes through their ranks for the elephants to pass through, which the elephants were more than happy to make use of.  At that point, the use of elephants on the battlefield became far less successful.

Meanwhile, the use of African Forest elephants in warfare resulted in them being captured and removed from their habitat to the point of extinction.  Various cultures tried taming the larger and more aggressive African Plains elephants, but that proved impossible except with young and barely useful specimens.  The Indian elephants didn't have the temperament to attack, and simply ran away at the first excuse, again making them relatively useless in combat except as a moving archery platform.

Caesar apparently brought a small number of elephants and camels to the British Isles, because the native troops had never encountered them before, and their horses were terrified of them.  They had long ceased to be practical on the field of battle elsewhere in the West, although they continued in use as mobile archery platforms in the East up until only a couple of centuries ago, and as "military engineering vehicles" for heavy lifting into the 20th Century.

Caesar?  Julius Caesar?  How is that relevant to Bannerlord, being 900 years before the time frame?  And the East you're talking about is Vietnam and Cambodia. 

How are Iron Age hill forts relevant to the timeframe, or infulence of continental Celts on Battanians? Looks like you've never grasped the idea of "fantasy world".

Anf the East includes areas up to Asia Minor, where elephants were used, athough gradually in decreasing numbers, up to late medieval period.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Certain Iron Age hill forts exist today.  They are constructions from a previous era, unlike elephants.

 

[kalarhan]

How are Iron Age hill forts relevant to the timeframe, or infulence of continental Celts on Battanians? Looks like you've never grasped the idea of "fantasy world".

its the same argument you could use for 2-handed swords. The devs themselves told us on a blog that they were adding those weapons, even if they were not really from the time period, because they were fun. Or how they were taking inspiration from important historical figures from other periods as reference for their factions NPCs, and so on.

in short: they told us on the blogs that time periods are a soft reference, not a hard rule.

but then again I still dont think it fits Bannerlord. Another problem is the battle size (too small), as we dont have armies in the thousands. Lets assume skirmishes with 350x350 as big events, and smaller ones like 100x100 as the normal, how would you use elephants? Keep them expensive and only the king would use them for major battles? Or any small lord with 50 soldiers could have a couple? And so on.

 

[Suleimanus]

What you could have is someone either in the Khuzait lands or somewhere in the Aserai desert, and you know, it could be a kinda sketchy person with decent stats, but perhaps not someone you want in your party, but if you get to know them, they could help you out by getting you some help "from a distant land" and this will be expensive, so unless you either have cash to spare or know what is going on, you will probably say no way, but then if you do, in a few weeks or so, you can get 2 or 3 war elephants, which will be total tanks on the field.

 

[FBohler]

I can't see war elephants really fitting M&B gameplay.

 

[Honved]

Basically, elephants COULD be used, but wouldn't be particularly fitting with most of the factions shown.  I don't think it's a good idea by itself, but I do hope that the game is flexible enough to handle it for potential mods set in earlier time periods.  A Greek-Persian war setting would be epic, and an earlier time period such as Babylon and Assyria, Judea and Egypt, and other early empires, could be enhanced by the ability to add elephants, camels, oxen, and/or other animals.

 

[ArnulfFloyd]

For ancient era and LOTR-themed mods elephants are essential

 

[Roccoflipside]

Basically, elephants COULD be used, but wouldn't be particularly fitting with most of the factions shown.  I don't think it's a good idea by itself, but I do hope that the game is flexible enough to handle it for potential mods set in earlier time periods. A Greek-Persian war setting would be epic, and an earlier time period such as Babylon and Assyria, Judea and Egypt, and other early empires, could be enhanced by the ability to add elephants, camels, oxen, and/or other animals.

How have I never thought of this? I guess the time doesn't actually lend itself towards random guys recruiting and fighting random lords... But still, if someone could make it work I'd definitely give it a shot.
Speaking of oxen, I'd like to see something including a wagon train. Done right, you can harass your opponent enough with maybe 50 troops, but also you have to protect your train while your on campaign with 200+ troops. It could be scaleable with your party size, which could encourage forming amies of multiple parties rather than the player just getting a large group of high tier soldiers and killing everyone in their path.