Economy HotIfx did the opposite

[mexxico]

Ok. I run your save game again 3 years with realistic settings. 3 out of 7 caravans are destroyed in my 3 years of run. I will run more.

In anycase caravans are so profitable. So it is normal they are destroyed time to time. Caravans = high risk and high profit, workshops = low risk and low profit. If we increase caravan's party size to 40-50 they will not be destroyed. This is not case we want. Then caravans will be like smithing javelin mechanic. Maybe we can add new features in future you can talk with your caravan master and you can say do not go these areas this will reduce their profit but then they last more years. Maybe that kind of stuff can be ok or maybe one trade perk give +5 caravan party size.

Even in this scenario (3 caravans are destroyed) 3 year run ended with 1M money starting with 0.2M. So caravans are still OP. You invest each 20K and they return 120K in average in 3 years. I understand you want to have full ability to control your caravan but it will not end with fun game mechanic.Maybe current scenario is not fun too (each time finding your hero in a random settlement after it's caravan is destroyed is not a fun mechanic I accept) but at least it is balanced currently not so OP.

 

[Flesson19]

Ok. I run your save game again 3 years with realistic settings. 3 out of 7 caravans are destroyed in my 3 years of run. I will run more.

In anycase caravans are so profitable. So it is normal they are destroyed time to time. Caravans = high risk and high profit, workshops = low risk and low profit. If we increase caravan's party size to 40-50 they will not be destroyed. This is not case we want. Then caravans will be like smithing javelin mechanic. Maybe we can add new features in future you can talk with your caravan master and you can say do not go these areas this will reduce their profit but then they last more years. Maybe that kind of stuff can be ok or maybe one trade perk give +5 caravan party size.

Even in this scenario (3 caravans are destroyed) 3 year run ended with 1M money starting with 0.2M. So caravans are still OP. You invest each 20K and they return 120K in average in 3 years. I understand you want to have full ability to control your caravan but it will not end with fun game mechanic.Maybe current scenario is not fun too (each time finding your hero in a random settlement after it's caravan is destroyed is not a fun mechanic I accept) but at least it is balanced currently not so OP.

I agree 100%, 1 lost per year is totally acceptable, I will run some on my own to see, it may be that you just had a good 3 years, or I just had a bad 3 years, so will do some more testing
thank you as always for your time

 

[Dabos37]

Hey Mexxico, I have been following this threat because I have had some issues with caravans, but it is true that I have noticed and big change after start buying upgraded caravans and not the regular ones. The thing is, I am just having issues when caravans are "close" to Khuzaits, even when I have buyed an upgraded caravan in Seonon which is not really close to the east. The thing is, how the caravans works in terms of choosing the paths? Are maybe the caravans trying to visit towns which are close the player or it is just random? Thanks!

 

[Schlarkenstein]

Ok. I run your save game again 3 years with realistic settings. 3 out of 7 caravans are destroyed in my 3 years of run. I will run more.

In anycase caravans are so profitable. So it is normal they are destroyed time to time. Caravans = high risk and high profit, workshops = low risk and low profit. If we increase caravan's party size to 40-50 they will not be destroyed. This is not case we want. Then caravans will be like smithing javelin mechanic. Maybe we can add new features in future you can talk with your caravan master and you can say do not go these areas this will reduce their profit but then they last more years. Maybe that kind of stuff can be ok or maybe one trade perk give +5 caravan party size.

Even in this scenario (3 caravans are destroyed) 3 year run ended with 1M money starting with 0.2M. So caravans are still OP. You invest each 20K and they return 120K in average in 3 years. I understand you want to have full ability to control your caravan but it will not end with fun game mechanic.Maybe current scenario is not fun too (each time finding your hero in a random settlement after it's caravan is destroyed is not a fun mechanic I accept) but at least it is balanced currently not so OP.

A few quality of life ideas:

When creating a Caravan, the NPC could give a warning: "Be careful creating caravans if the kingdom is at war... Caravans don't last long in war. Take advantage of them during peacetime for the best profits"

Caravan size/quality could be tied more to the companion's stewardship/leadership. - It is my current assumption that the 'spicevendor' companion with high trade gives the most profit (mine is currently making 1,000/day during peacetime)... Perhaps a companion with high leadership could give higher quality troops but less profit... And a companion with high stewardship could have more troops but less profit and less quality troops... That way there would be a mechanic that allows the player some degree of control over their risk-reward tolerance. (While still having caravans be high risk/ high reward compared to workshops) - still include a lower and upper limit of roughly 25 - 45 or so.

Have the ability to send party members on quests to fetch defeated Caravan members etc. And return after a few days. - it would be far less annoying to have defeated caravans if you didn't have to wander to the other side of the map to get them and send them out again

 

[Flesson19]

A few quality of life ideas:

When creating a Caravan, the NPC could give a warning: "Be careful creating caravans if the kingdom is at war... Caravans don't last long in war. Take advantage of them during peacetime for the best profits"

Caravan size/quality could be tied more to the companion's stewardship/leadership. - It is my current assumption that the 'spicevendor' companion with high trade gives the most profit (mine is currently making 1,000/day during peacetime)... Perhaps a companion with high leadership could give higher quality troops but less profit... And a companion with high stewardship could have more troops but less profit and less quality troops... That way there would be a mechanic that allows the player some degree of control over their risk-reward tolerance. (While still having caravans be high risk/ high reward compared to workshops) - still include a lower and upper limit of roughly 25 - 45 or so.

Have the ability to send party members on quests to fetch defeated Caravan members etc. And return after a few days. - it would be far less annoying to have defeated caravans if you didn't have to wander to the other side of the map to get them and send them out again

Making 1,000 is great and I see your point about other skills affecting things. I am running some tests and so is mexxico to make sure we are right. It would be nice to have more options like I think workshops should have it says they are level one.
I do have a lot of suggestions for mexxico and the team but I know they are really busy so trying 1 thing at a time
However with all that said you do bring up some good ideas

 

[Phactos]

In anycase caravans are so profitable. So it is normal they are destroyed time to time. Caravans = high risk and high profit, workshops = low risk and low profit. If we increase caravan's party size to 40-50 they will not be destroyed. This is not case we want. Then caravans will be like smithing javelin mechanic. Maybe we can add new features in future you can talk with your caravan master and you can say do not go these areas this will reduce their profit but then they last more years. Maybe that kind of stuff can be ok or maybe one trade perk give +5 caravan party size.

In my game (I'm around day 2k), some NPC caravans' party size is 50, why the NPC can make a bigger caravan than the player?

Also can we have a different party size depending on the upgrade, it would make more sense if the normal party size was 30 and the upgraded version 35, this way we could differentiate which NPC has a stronger caravan in the world map just by looking at it.

 

[Flesson19]

In my game (I'm around day 2k), some NPC caravans' party size is 50, why the NPC can make a bigger caravan than the player?

Also can we have a different party size depending on the upgrade, it would make more sense if the normal party size was 30 and the upgraded version 35, this way we could differentiate which NPC has a stronger caravan in the world map just by looking at it.

or how about a 3rd version, first one 15,000 upgraded troops 22,500 upgraded troops and 25 or 40 party size 30,000, not sure on party size or cost but a third option might be nice, like I said I have so many suggestions, I wish I could just submit them all to a certain email or something that they could check out. Like hoping your little brother and sister and maybe your children all start 0 and 1 stats but have some focus assigned and they are only level 1 it allows you to build them up how you need them. I am not sure if how it is now is final, I am hoping so bad they don't just assign all their stats, make then 22-25 and mostly red hard capped, would be a waste to have a child at 18 years old and can't learn anything. But like I said I have hundreds of ideas I wish I could submit but I try to keep quiet on most since they so much to work on, that known issues pages is crazy, they want us to go through that page before submitting bugs, it can take 5 minutes to examine all those issues, which they need to address that badly. So I try to keep mostly quiet.
What ya think about the third option?

 

[Schlarkenstein]

or how about a 3rd version, first one 15,000 upgraded troops 22,500 upgraded troops and 25 or 40 party size 30,000, not sure on party size or cost but a third option might be nice, like I said I have so many suggestions....

This comment section is a great place to offer suggestions about caravans, like your idea to have a more expensive third tier option which could work well enough. Only the devs/mexxico know what would be easy to implement/within the scope of the game so we can only offer our thoughts and they can take/leave what they want.

For other suggestions there is a whole part of the forum dedicated to them. If there is enough enthusiasm from the community about a new suggestion then the devs will usually comment on whether or not they'll try to implement it. I have seen quite a few new suggestions get attention that way. (I believe we'll see family mechanics properly fleshed out after character death is fully implemented) But it can't hurt to make new submissions.

Oh, I really liked your video testing the average Caravan income by the way. I think that is really useful information for new players to know, perhaps you could make that its own post in the forums or on reddit?

Making 1,000 is great and I see your point about other skills affecting things. I am running some tests and so is mexxico to make sure we are right. It would be nice to have more options like I think workshops should have it says they are level one.
I do have a lot of suggestions for mexxico and the team but I know they are really busy so trying 1 thing at a time
However with all that said you do bring up some good ideas

Overall, I think Caravans are pretty well balanced but do need some quality of life improvements (Like where mexxico said it's not fun having to find your companions after they were defeated. I agree with this and suggest being able to send out a companion from your party to bring them back to you instead)

My personal experience with Caravans has been that they're incredibly difficult to keep alive during wars (Especially if your caravans have to cross enemy territory in order to trade) See here:

When my kingdom was at war with both Vlandia and Battanians, I couldn't keep a caravan running for very long at all so I basically gave up on them. Vlandia had employed every minor faction in the game in an attempt to stay alive so all my Kingdom's caravans and villages were being wiped out quickly << This is definitely where having a larger caravan would help. OR being able to instruct them to avoid certain locations (as Mexxico suggested)

However, after those wars were over (And after the caravan hotfix), I have been able to run a single caravan (spicevendor, 22500 upgraded) at 700-1000 daily income with no issues... Even after declaring war on the largest enemy, see here:

Obviously I now own a large part of the campaign map which makes trading quite easy and safe for my personal caravans.

So really, Caravans are mostly fine in my opinion (And your video shows how successful they can be). Wars can be incredibly problematic for them - But that should be expected, right? It would just be nice to have an easier/less boring way of getting them back.

I would also like to see a bit of variety in caravan sizes (without making them too OP) and I would like to see a clearer UI/explanation when employing caravans.

 

[Flesson19]

Oh, I really liked your video testing the average Caravan income by the way. I think that is really useful information for new players to know, perhaps you could make that its own post in the forums or on reddit?

Thank you very much, I put 3 days into that and when I hear things like this it gives me more motivation on doing others, I put one up for skills and how not to bog down into the mid 20's, and thank you for the suggestion area, I will go there and give some ideas.

Thank you again for the kind words.

 

[皮w蛋]

Ok. I run your save game again 3 years with realistic settings. 3 out of 7 caravans are destroyed in my 3 years of run. I will run more.

In anycase caravans are so profitable. So it is normal they are destroyed time to time. Caravans = high risk and high profit, workshops = low risk and low profit. If we increase caravan's party size to 40-50 they will not be destroyed. This is not case we want. Then caravans will be like smithing javelin mechanic. Maybe we can add new features in future you can talk with your caravan master and you can say do not go these areas this will reduce their profit but then they last more years. Maybe that kind of stuff can be ok or maybe one trade perk give +5 caravan party size.

Even in this scenario (3 caravans are destroyed) 3 year run ended with 1M money starting with 0.2M. So caravans are still OP. You invest each 20K and they return 120K in average in 3 years. I understand you want to have full ability to control your caravan but it will not end with fun game mechanic.Maybe current scenario is not fun too (each time finding your hero in a random settlement after it's caravan is destroyed is not a fun mechanic I accept) but at least it is balanced currently not so OP.

Hi mexxico, I sent my save files to your email. Please see my description in the email.

If you can, please try to make money by trading goods in 1.4.3beta to see if there is a problem with the goods hoarding.

There is no problem with the caravan.

 

[mexxico]

Hi mexxico, I sent my save files to your email. Please see my description in the email.

If you can, please try to make money by trading goods in 1.4.3beta to see if there is a problem with the goods hoarding.

There is no problem with the caravan.

I see your mail. I also examined date prices as you said and I see no problem. Let me give you one clue. If caravans can make up to 800 EUR a day average this means as player you can do same profit too. Caravans are not cheating. They are buying-selling goods too also their party size is only 30 so they carry less also they are not buying selling same items all the time you can follow them. So there is no problem in prices. If all prices are so close so how caravans make that much profit? Later I will post here price map (from your save) if I find time however there are more important issues now. I need to look war-peace algorithms.

 

[mexxico]

Thank you very much, I put 3 days into that and when I hear things like this it gives me more motivation on doing others, I put one up for skills and how not to bog down into the mid 20's, and thank you for the suggestion area, I will go there and give some ideas.

Thank you again for the kind words.

By the way yes @Flesson19 your trade & caravan related videos are great nobody made that kind of videos till now with giving all numbers and details. Keep up good work!

 

[皮w蛋]

I see your mail. I also examined date prices as you said and I see no problem. Let me give you one clue. If caravans can make up to 800 EUR a day average this means as player you can do same profit too. Caravans are not cheating. They are buying-selling goods too also their party size is only 30 so they carry less. So there is no problem in prices. If all prices are so close so how caravans make that much profit? Later I will post here price map if I find time however there are more important issues now. I need to look war-peace algorithms.

Thank you. It's really different for players to trade by themselves and trade caravans. I know you don't have time to test again. In fact, QA Team should have done these tests.

Diplomacy, peace and war are very important. We look forward to the adjustment after that.

 

[Notealot]

I see your mail. I also examined date prices as you said and I see no problem. Let me give you one clue. If caravans can make 1000 EUR a day this means as player you can do same profit too. Caravans are not cheating. They are buying-selling goods too also their party size is only 30 so they carry less. So there is no problem in prices. If all prices are so close so how caravans make that much profit? Later I will post here price map if I find time however there are more important issues now. I need to look war-peace algorithms.

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to analyze.

But in fact, players don't know the market well like AI, and players also need pay wages for their large troops. If you don't trade by yourself, you won't know this difference. This directly affects the player's earlier stage gaming experience.

Maybe it's better to let a specially-assigned person test this.

 

[mexxico]

Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to analyze.

But in fact, players don't know the market well like AI, and players also need pay wages for their large troops. If you don't trade by yourself, you won't know this difference. This directly affects the player's earlier stage gaming experience.

Maybe it's better to let a specially-assigned person test this.

Caravans also pay wages you do not see this in finance summary. What you get (up to 800 EUR profit) is profit remained after they pay their wages. This means they make more than 1K daily because 0.2-0.3 goes to wage payments. Also caravans do not have so key extra info. If dates are cheap at south and expensive in north or olives are cheap in west and expensive in east its a general info do not change much during game. Any random city do not have so so extreme prices for any item at anytime. If olives are 30 in a city it is 25 or 35 in neighbour city generally. If you go a city and by accident if a new caravan sold olives there it can be bad for a caravan too so you do not sell your olives there and go a nearby city or make circles in map and buy cheap sell expensive. You do not have to sell all your items in a city or area, sell what is expensive if nothing is expensive go next city.

 

[Notealot]

Caravans also pay wages you do not see this in finance summary. What you get (up to 800 EUR profit) is profit remained after they pay their wages. This means they make more than 1K daily because 0.2-0.3 goes to wage payments. Also caravans do not have so key extra info. If dates are cheap at south and expensive in north or olives are cheap in west and expensive in east its a general info do not change much during game. Any random city do not have so so extreme prices for any item at anytime. If olives are 30 in a city it is 25 or 35 in neighbour city generally. If you go a city and by accident if a new caravan sold olives there it can be bad for a caravan too so you do not sell your olives there and go a nearby city or make circles in map and buy cheap sell expensive. You do not have to sell all your items in a city or area, sell what is expensive if nothing is expensive go next city.

Thanks for replying.
Pi Dan and I set game version to latest e1.4.3 and tested again, we believe that this issue improved after last hotfix.
Please rest assured to adjust war and diplomacy.

 

[Flesson19]

By the way yes @Flesson19 your trade & caravan related videos are great nobody made that kind of videos till now with giving all numbers and details. Keep up good work!

Thank you, that is really nice of you to say, I appreciate it. Just want to do everything possible to make the game great for full release. I loved warband so much that all I want is for this to be just as good or better. Your doing a great job also, we appreciate you and the entire team for their effort.
I just started a new Aserai 1,000 day trader game to see how much i can make, I will also keep track of caravans lost as another test since I'm not sure if my number were bad when i told you I was losing 1 a season, will elt you know results, thank you

 

[皮w蛋]

Caravans also pay wages you do not see this in finance summary. What you get (up to 800 EUR profit) is profit remained after they pay their wages. This means they make more than 1K daily because 0.2-0.3 goes to wage payments. Also caravans do not have so key extra info. If dates are cheap at south and expensive in north or olives are cheap in west and expensive in east its a general info do not change much during game. Any random city do not have so so extreme prices for any item at anytime. If olives are 30 in a city it is 25 or 35 in neighbour city generally. If you go a city and by accident if a new caravan sold olives there it can be bad for a caravan too so you do not sell your olives there and go a nearby city or make circles in map and buy cheap sell expensive. You do not have to sell all your items in a city or area, sell what is expensive if nothing is expensive go next city.

Thank you mexxico. I played again for a few hours and tested it. Things are much better now. Thank you for your efforts.

 

[mexxico]

@Flesson19 did you make more tests? How many of your caravans destroyed in your 3 year tests?

I also want to ask you something. While you are testing what you make speed of time passing? FF (5x) or more by cheat? I think this can also effect. It seems like using time constants like 20x-30x results in more caravan to be destroyed. I know this should not happen. Maybe there is a bug somewhere while calculating which party to catch which party in 20-30xs.

 

[Flesson19]

@Flesson19 did you make more tests? How many of your caravans destroyed in your 3 year tests?

I also want to ask you something. While you are testing what you make speed of time passing? FF (5x) or more by cheat? I think this can also effect. It seems like using time constants like 20x-30x results in more caravan to be destroyed. I know this should not happen. Maybe there is a bug somewhere while calculating which party to catch which party in 20-30xs.

I am testing now for caravan loss, I only use the fast speed that is built into the game, There is pause, normal and the fast forward, no cheats or mods used