Economy HotIfx did the opposite

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aG3NTo

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The workshop profits for a new game are around like 150 denars / cycle, in my old playthrough it was about 800 for an ironmonger in Epicrotea which usually has huge supply for iron ore. It is okay to balance all the workshop profits that no "pottery madness" happens again, but the passive income is way too low now. I sometimes play very trade / merchant oriented, before concentrating on my Renown, now trading seems very redundant and no fun. Did not test caravans yet.
 

mexxico

Developer
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I'm not sure if this is related to the trade penalty but what really bother me is how fast the price drop. If I'm not mistaken I just need to sell 6 clay to make the price drop 30 to 25. On 1.4.1 (or 2) I think i could sell at least 50 clays to have the same price drop of 30 to 25. I just made a test with salt, the city had a selling price of 54 for salt and have a stock of 8, after selling 8 units the price is already at 48. The adjustment of price should take way more units to stabilize. In this patch I can't make more than 2k profit per city.
I examined situation a bit. Faster price drop while selling is not so unlogical in your samples because you are selling clay at nearly highest price (30), without trade penalty it should be around 33. So it is nearly 1.7x of original price. After you sell 6 clay raw price moves from 33 to 29 imo. And this is not so unlogical. You should make profit by selling items to different towns. After you sell 6 clays their clay demand is a bit equalized especially if this town is a small prosperity one like < 4000. Codes in these areas did not changed much (only demands are a bit reduced) maybe you sold clays in your previous play to a town with 10K prosperity. In any case 10% default trade penalty is so high I will reduce it. Making 1-2K from one city trade is not low. You can make better trade profits by selling different items if you focus only 1-2-3 items they will not bring enough profit.

Again I continue examining. Maybe we should also reduce troop wages a bit. Money is hard to win compared to previous versions.

If you upload a sample save game where I can see this huge price drop while selling 6 clays I can examine better. In my samples I see slower price drop for clay (low priced item).
 

Phactos

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I examined situation a bit. Faster price drop while selling is not so unlogical in your samples because you are selling clay at nearly highest price (30), without trade penalty it should be around 33. So it is nearly 1.7x of original price. After you sell 6 clay raw price moves from 33 to 29 imo. And this is not so unlogical. You should make profit by selling items to different towns. After you sell 6 clays their clay demand is a bit equalized especially if this town is a small prosperity one like < 4000. Codes in these areas did not changed much (only demands are a bit reduced) maybe you sold clays in your previous play to a town with 10K prosperity. In any case 10% default trade penalty is so high I will reduce it. Making 1-2K from one city trade is not low. You can make better trade profits by selling different items if you focus only 1-2-3 items they will not bring enough profit.

Again I continue examining. Maybe we should also reduce troop wages a bit. Money is hard to win compared to previous versions.

If you upload a sample save game where I can see this huge price drop while selling 6 clays I can examine better. In my samples I see slower price drop for clay (low priced item).
Ok, maybe clay wasn't the best example I tried and it was near what you told, I used it because it was the main product I used to trade when I started my campaign on 1.4.1 and this save file has suffered from some economics crisis before (I’m almost at day 2.000), let me rephrase my statement. I think the city necessities are too low for what an entire city needs. Are 50 sacks of grain enough to stabilize the price of a starving city? Are 20 hardwoods enough for a city with 2.5k prosperity? To me I would expect at least 100 grains or 50 hardwood to make the price stabilize, the quantity the way it is now a single caravan can supply a whole city and that seems a little exaggerated.

I just manage to get a save with a city almost without products because of 2 sieges in a short time, I can send to you with you want it should be easier to see that the whole city necessity is really low. Also it seems a good move to reduce the troops wage, thanks for answering!
 

Flesson19

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I examined situation a bit. Faster price drop while selling is not so unlogical in your samples because you are selling clay at nearly highest price (30), without trade penalty it should be around 33. So it is nearly 1.7x of original price. After you sell 6 clay raw price moves from 33 to 29 imo. And this is not so unlogical. You should make profit by selling items to different towns. After you sell 6 clays their clay demand is a bit equalized especially if this town is a small prosperity one like < 4000. Codes in these areas did not changed much (only demands are a bit reduced) maybe you sold clays in your previous play to a town with 10K prosperity. In any case 10% default trade penalty is so high I will reduce it. Making 1-2K from one city trade is not low. You can make better trade profits by selling different items if you focus only 1-2-3 items they will not bring enough profit.

Again I continue examining. Maybe we should also reduce troop wages a bit. Money is hard to win compared to previous versions.

If you upload a sample save game where I can see this huge price drop while selling 6 clays I can examine better. In my samples I see slower price drop for clay (low priced item).
Hate to mention it but certain cities prices drop faster than others, I will give one great example and that it Jalmarys, even after a siege and they are paying premium prices, as you start to sell their prices drop so fast it is crazy, it is to the point as a trader, I "never" visit that town because I know I will never make a good profit and it is a waste of time, I am sure it is just something about the city how it is coded, but if you are able to manually have it seiged and then try to sell goods you will notices exactly what I mean. maybe checking that town out will give you the information needed to discover why some sell alright and some are terrible to sell at. whether it's coded wrong or too low prosperity that won't move I am not sure, but since you have my caravan save game with goods ready to go, it's all setup for you to just go there and check since you can check that out while checking out to see how quick caravans get captured (Fyi hope you saw my message about game sestings, they are very easy on that save and might want to turn them back up)
 

Flesson19

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Yes. If trade penalty default drops to 8% from 10% also all caravan profits will be effected a bit positively.
ok 100 days in and Trade penalty change is so so for me, however it is really good for caravans and i think that solved them except of course for them getting captured late game.
 

mexxico

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ok 100 days in and Trade penalty change is so so for me, however it is really good for caravans and i think that solved them except of course for them getting captured late game.
It was a quick small change to make things a bit better i will go deep this issue. Unfortunately there are lots of things to deal with.
 
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Flesson19

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It was a quick small change to make things a bit better i will go deep this issue. Unfortunately there are lots of things to deal with.
I understand appreciate the hotfix, it made a noticeable difference in helping and can it's no longer an issue, I do get you have a lot to do and I will be patient on the caravan max troop issue, just give ye a message when you get it dealt with, as I am always on the current beta branch and do constant testing for issues,
Thank you again for the amazing quick fix, appreciated
happy holidays
 

aG3NTo

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I examined situation a bit. Faster price drop while selling is not so unlogical in your samples because you are selling clay at nearly highest price (30), without trade penalty it should be around 33. So it is nearly 1.7x of original price. After you sell 6 clay raw price moves from 33 to 29 imo. And this is not so unlogical. You should make profit by selling items to different towns. After you sell 6 clays their clay demand is a bit equalized especially if this town is a small prosperity one like < 4000. Codes in these areas did not changed much (only demands are a bit reduced) maybe you sold clays in your previous play to a town with 10K prosperity. In any case 10% default trade penalty is so high I will reduce it. Making 1-2K from one city trade is not low. You can make better trade profits by selling different items if you focus only 1-2-3 items they will not bring enough profit.

Again I continue examining. Maybe we should also reduce troop wages a bit. Money is hard to win compared to previous versions.

If you upload a sample save game where I can see this huge price drop while selling 6 clays I can examine better. In my samples I see slower price drop for clay (low priced item).

In my recent findings (new game with hotfix applied) i discovered that the prices of basic resources will work for cities where it is produced in close villages. However the price of the advanced goods that are produced are way too cheap. So if you reduced the consumption rate for cities, they now just sit on goods like tools, oil, pottery, etc. and the prices for those will stabilize at their base resource combination price. Olives around 20 d where they are not produced, counter 17 where they are produced and the final good is like 30 - 40 denars.

I think this explains why the merchants and NPCs do not make enough money now, and possibly drop off so hard that they disappear.

I also have loaded an old game with over 1600 days in, where i just hid in a town of mine and watched the prices plummet down. Ironmonger in Epicrotea dropped from 1000 denars to 350 / d which sometimes not running. I think because of the prices are so close together in all cities, the merchant caravans do not go to the right sellings points where the resources are needed.

Thanks for your work, on demand i can also provide savefiles.
 

Flesson19

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It was a quick small change to make things a bit better i will go deep this issue. Unfortunately there are lots of things to deal with.
OK I know you got a lot of your plate, but no proof but I think I figured out the economy problem as they game goes on and it ties into my caravan problem. As I said caravans face huge looter and bandit parties late game, so it's obvious to assume so do villagers. If they are constantly getting captured because of huge packs of bandits then they don't get their goods to town which explains why towns are running low on supplies and therefor the prices are skyrocketing, turn 1 grain average price 9, fish 10, then turn 1200 grain is 12 and fish 16. I have no proof of this but it makes complete sense. A cut down of bandits spawning and max party size would solve both issues I think. Or just cut down the spawn and increase caravan size for compensate and let people clear bandits also. Just another idea to give ya because it makes so much sense and explains everything.
 

mexxico

Developer
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OK I know you got a lot of your plate, but no proof but I think I figured out the economy problem as they game goes on and it ties into my caravan problem. As I said caravans face huge looter and bandit parties late game, so it's obvious to assume so do villagers. If they are constantly getting captured because of huge packs of bandits then they don't get their goods to town which explains why towns are running low on supplies and therefor the prices are skyrocketing, turn 1 grain average price 9, fish 10, then turn 1200 grain is 12 and fish 16. I have no proof of this but it makes complete sense. A cut down of bandits spawning and max party size would solve both issues I think. Or just cut down the spawn and increase caravan size for compensate and let people clear bandits also. Just another idea to give ya because it makes so much sense and explains everything.
I know there is about 50% inflation in item price averages in 10-15 game years but I think its reason is not bandits but prosperity & consumption increase. I will examine it.
 

Flesson19

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I know there is about 50% inflation in item price averages in 10-15 game years but I think its reason is not bandits but prosperity & consumption increase. I will examine it.
ok Im gonna keep quiet after this one as to me caravans are the worst right now, I talked to a few people from my youtube channel and they say the same thing 30-60 days per caravan loss, I spend a lot of my time either recovering captured companion and sending them out or defeating huge bandit parties, talking 50-80 size groups are always found on the map 1300 days in, So to me getting that caravan size increase means more than anything, so to let you finish all the stuff you got going on, Ill keep posts silent and let you get to work.
Thanks for everything
 

Schlarkenstein

Regular
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ok Im gonna keep quiet after this one as to me caravans are the worst right now, I talked to a few people from my youtube channel and they say the same thing 30-60 days per caravan loss, I spend a lot of my time either recovering captured companion and sending them out or defeating huge bandit parties, talking 50-80 size groups are always found on the map 1300 days in, So to me getting that caravan size increase means more than anything, so to let you finish all the stuff you got going on, Ill keep posts silent and let you get to work.
Thanks for everything

Here is a screenshot from my late game. I can confirm that my caravans aren't lasting as long anymore (Even with the paying 22500 to make them stronger).

Although, with the latest patch, the caravans are now making a tonne more money each week: Just ensure that you use the "spicevendor" type characters, get the upgraded version of the caravan and that you're not at war with any massive kingdoms. (Wars seem to kill caravan economy but are also where I make the most money by looting other lords).

talking 50-80 size groups are always found on the map 1300 days in
In regards to this: I have noticed that Towns/villages that have been at relative peace/unattacked for a long time (And have a hearth of over 600) are spawning villager stacks of 40-80+ men also

In areas that have been "war-torn" and are constantly changing hands (Like Epicrotea and Sturgia and surrounding villages) are only spawning villager mobs of about 8-15 and are getting caught up in lots of skirmishes. - Perhaps the 'Man hunter' / 'Town Patrols' mechanic could come back into play here?... Or perhaps add weaker minor factions that you can hire to supress looters etc. in an area.

(I personally think it would be cool to be able to pay the local bandit-hideout leaders to spawn bandits that join your team temporarily, for a price (They would be cheaper than patrols/man-hunters). - They would supress other bandits and would grow in strength/numbers and slowly get more expensive. BUT as soon as your stopped paying them then they would become a huge issue for you and start raiding your villagers etc. etc... It would add a unique flavour to the campaign map and bandit mechanics, I think)

Anyway, I don't know if that is 100% the issue, as I have taken Towns with 0-100 prosperity and have slowly grinded them back up to 1000+ with little-to-no action required on my part. The villages have slowly been better too. (But it is a really slow grind waiting for prosperity to go back up).
 

mexxico

Developer
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ok Im gonna keep quiet after this one as to me caravans are the worst right now, I talked to a few people from my youtube channel and they say the same thing 30-60 days per caravan loss, I spend a lot of my time either recovering captured companion and sending them out or defeating huge bandit parties, talking 50-80 size groups are always found on the map 1300 days in, So to me getting that caravan size increase means more than anything, so to let you finish all the stuff you got going on, Ill keep posts silent and let you get to work.
Thanks for everything
I examined your save file. It starts at spring 1096, I run game 3 years and any of your caravans did not destroyed. Actually this is not what I want. At least some of them should be destroyed because caravans should be risky investment. They bring good money. As you can see in screenshot your money become 1.5M in 3 years means that your 7 caravans bring 1.3M in 3 years. 7x3 = 21 caravan/year = 1.3M means each caravan bring about 60K per year (1.3M / 21) and 700 denars a day (60K / 82). This is really huge money. I cannot understand how you see your caravans are destroyed even in my run in 3 years any of your caravans did not get destroyed. Now I will run again.

Its very weird you say 30-60 days per caravan loss but I did not see any one caravan loss in 246 days (3 years x 82 days) in your save file.

 
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Flesson19

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I examined your save file. It starts at spring 1096, I run game 3 years and any of your caravans did not destroyed. Actually this is not what I want. At least some of them should be destroyed because caravans should be risky investment. They bring good money. As you can see in screenshot your money become 1.5M in 3 years means that your 7 caravans bring 1.3M in 3 years. 7x3 = 21 caravan/year = 1.3M means each caravan bring about 60K per year (1.3M / 21) and 700 denars a day (60K / 82). This is really huge money. I cannot understand how you see your caravans are destroyed even in my run in 3 years any of your caravans did not get destroyed. Now I will run again.

Its very weird you say 30-60 days per caravan loss but I did not see any one caravan loss in 246 days (3 years x 82 days) in your save file.

Did you reset the difficulty back to realistic? I changed to it very easy to run my test. Like I said I ran 8 tests for my video and only twice out of 8 runs did all survive 71 days which is the length of the test. I could literally load it up and record it and show how bad it is. And I have multiple people in my Youtube channels saying the same thing. And yes the money is good but also I have a small group and I have no other groups where I could have 3 more which would really cut down the profit.
I know it's a problem, others do also, I get the feeling you just got super lucky, But I will go back later today and run a 3 year test myself on realistic and show my results.