I would go one step ahead to claim this is an issue beyond workshops. Even as a player. You sell 1 jewelry and price drops 10% if you are lucky. The trade currently is either catching crazy momentary deals or just trading horses.
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Economy Changes with 1.8 and onwards
- Thread starter cuce
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I would go one step ahead to claim this is an issue beyond workshops. Even as a player. You sell 1 jewelry and price drops 10% if you are lucky. The trade currently is either catching crazy momentary deals or just trading horses.
Brano
Sergeant at Arms
Horses are still the best trade. Just go to Azerai lands, buy them in those deep-in-desert towns (Hubyar? smtg with I.... and A....) and sell them on the coast (Quayaz, Sanala). I sure misspell those names cause even after 1000+ hours in game they are unmemorable for me. In fact almost all calradia language is unmemorable for me. Its like alien language 
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it works and all of that. though for the use of weapons especally when that stocks up massivelly is going to make smithies a pain to work with latter on. 
hopefully there is something there that allows the consumption of those weapons in a meangingful way (same with armors etc) like better equipped town garasons, or someday better village millita garasons as well with better gear for better defense.
hopefully there is something there that allows the consumption of those weapons in a meangingful way (same with armors etc) like better equipped town garasons, or someday better village millita garasons as well with better gear for better defense.
Looks really nice TaleWorlds!
is there a system that would give a base price of a product, and adds a fixed sum on top of that based on distance from the source?
like:
furs in sturgia would cost only the base cost +- market demand + 0 distance costs
furs in Asserai would cost the base cost +- market demand + 20 distance costs
@cuce, please consider integrating the player caravans with the player workshops. This way the caravans can find the best markets for the inputs and outputs off the workshop. And please consider giving the player the option to set routes for player caravans. This would give the players who play as a trader more control over their trade empire.
like:
furs in sturgia would cost only the base cost +- market demand + 0 distance costs
furs in Asserai would cost the base cost +- market demand + 20 distance costs
@cuce, please consider integrating the player caravans with the player workshops. This way the caravans can find the best markets for the inputs and outputs off the workshop. And please consider giving the player the option to set routes for player caravans. This would give the players who play as a trader more control over their trade empire.
That is kind of part of the demand. The further away from the source a city is, the longer it takes caravans to get there & the greater the chance caravan will get intercepted along the way & the greater the chance the caravan will sell the good before getting to that city. That all combined means that demand in far cities will be greater.
That is kind what I expected. The system in dynamic and 100% interconnected. This sounds amazing, but my fear is that this system can easily be unbalanced.
My thought is that by adding a fixed sum per distance from the source, you will create a bigger chance of price differences that will make the travel distance worthwhile. This in theory would stabilise the dynamic market a bit.
While I really like the idea of all the different parts of the simulation connecting en influencing each other, I think this hampers development time by investigating which change disrupted the balance this time and every new implementation can have unforeseen consequences.
Systems that temper the fluctuations of the dynamic systems can help stabilise the simulation while implementing new systems and bug fixes. tinkering can be done at the end of development
granitestone
Recruit
I'm no longer invested enough to spend time on a long post. Trading and workshops are broken worse than ever. I'm not saying to work on it - obviously you'll make it worse, as has been demonstrated. I'm just saying I'm uninstalling yet again.
wzh
Recruit
Hi,
Workshops: It's very hard to keep track of the income over time. I did this manually once in Warband: Every time there was a report I noted down the profits (Excel), and I made a graph to show the profits over time, and most importantly - profit compared to initial cost. This is even harder to do in Bannerlord because it doesn't have that periodic report. So, what I miss is the historical data view for workshops to help evaluate the actual profit from the investment. (Btw the Excel sheet was miserable to maintain)
Caravans: It annoys me that caravans don't avoid territories with which its owner is at war. Surely that would be a very unnecessary risk to take in a realistic situation.
Towns: The Warband option of giving inventory to the workshop seems like a natural part of a commercial venture. Boosting the economy of the Workshop with cheap items from far away. Caravans could also be part of this where they use their long-distance trade to supply workshops with the same owner. That would make it much more relevant to own both caravans as well as workshops at the same time.
Those are my three opinions for now
Workshops: It's very hard to keep track of the income over time. I did this manually once in Warband: Every time there was a report I noted down the profits (Excel), and I made a graph to show the profits over time, and most importantly - profit compared to initial cost. This is even harder to do in Bannerlord because it doesn't have that periodic report. So, what I miss is the historical data view for workshops to help evaluate the actual profit from the investment. (Btw the Excel sheet was miserable to maintain
)Caravans: It annoys me that caravans don't avoid territories with which its owner is at war. Surely that would be a very unnecessary risk to take in a realistic situation.
Towns: The Warband option of giving inventory to the workshop seems like a natural part of a commercial venture. Boosting the economy of the Workshop with cheap items from far away. Caravans could also be part of this where they use their long-distance trade to supply workshops with the same owner. That would make it much more relevant to own both caravans as well as workshops at the same time.
Those are my three opinions for now
This. All the way. While I do like to think, it seems workshops have become more trouble than they are worth. Maybe they ll be more useful late game, when the player needs them a lot less.
We need more in game information for sure. Cost now too high and the risks are to high making the workshop system to tedious and stressful to enjoy. I love this game and love economic changes but workshops just arent worth it anymore
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Workshops are pretty broken at present. Even when buying a workshop in a town with 3 villages producing the required products for the workshop, it is not unusual for the workshop to have 0 (that is ZERO) income after a few months, and your only option seems to be to sell it at a significant LOSS.
Broken. Since this change that seem to affect trade caravans too, it has become MUCH more difficult to have a stable or financially lucrative economy outside of war. As soon as war ends the cost of maintaining garrisons, parties, exc. become unsustainable.
Broken. Since this change that seem to affect trade caravans too, it has become MUCH more difficult to have a stable or financially lucrative economy outside of war. As soon as war ends the cost of maintaining garrisons, parties, exc. become unsustainable.
Brano
Sergeant at Arms
Why does caravan require to have one of my companions as caravan master, when there is already an AI caravan master in? And why workshop doesn't require to have one of my companions to run it? IMO neither caravan nor workshop should require to sacrifice a companion. Companion is there to be with my character all the time. To fight together with me. To drink with me in taverns. Not to send him away and never see him again. Same extends to governors. Why can't I just appoint one of the local notables as governor?
we track availability heatmaps, avarage high and low prices, price indexes, prosperity trends of towns, caravan survival times, workshop counts, etc
these are the ones we check in general. if there is something that look fishy amongs these we check other things.
ThorheimAP
Recruit
I've been cheating up money and clan tier to check out how each Kingdom are in terms of production considering the villiages surrounding said Town. While feeling like an economist, darting around the map, buying, selling enterprises. Reset on a new save and so on.
In my overall conclusion is: I dont get it. I have no idea how to creat a stable economy in a kingdom to support my armies as I raise to fame among the land.
Most notably I have to say that Vlandia stood out for being the uttermost terrible economical area. No enterprise rarely went up to 300+, many of them stayed even below 200.
I also went into my World Conquest save to check out, my economy was mostly based on the 5 towns I owned. Workshops were abyssmal.
SO... for economies sake... get a town?
Edit:
Now I have experimented around with Caravans. They are a nice source of income!
In my overall conclusion is: I dont get it. I have no idea how to creat a stable economy in a kingdom to support my armies as I raise to fame among the land.
Most notably I have to say that Vlandia stood out for being the uttermost terrible economical area. No enterprise rarely went up to 300+, many of them stayed even below 200.
I also went into my World Conquest save to check out, my economy was mostly based on the 5 towns I owned. Workshops were abyssmal.
SO... for economies sake... get a town?
Edit:
Now I have experimented around with Caravans. They are a nice source of income!
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Not really sure how behavior like this was considered "good enough" for release candidate:
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Two different starving towns, food prices are still at "discount" level. Myzea even has plenty of food on the market, cheap, for some reason.
This is after a daily tick (or several in case of Hubyar). Starving towns, or even towns expected to run out of food in 2-3 days, should immediately attempt to buy out ANY food item still available on the local market (impacting tax gains from that settlements, can't get money from people who just spent a fortune on basic necessities, no matter what my government may think), and apply it toward reduction in local food storage. Pretty ridiculous to see a town starving while 150+ loads of meat are offered dirt-cheap in its markets.
Another major issue I've noticed is that goods consumption is completely off, especially compared to workshop production capacity. Breweries, as the most egregious example in current version, will flood the market in just a few days enough to become unprofitable. There are enough of them on the map to quickly flood the "global" market into long-term unprofitability. Similar issue occurs with most workshops, unless the player spends time fighting against the "economy" with manual good distribution, or is fortunate enough that warfare causes enough disruption and depletion.
On top of that, consumption information is so heavily obfuscated, or completely hidden from the player, unless they are the owner of a town, most of it will be undecipherable.
The leftmost notable should be able to offer a breakdown of economic situation of a town:
"We can rely on our three villages to provide grain, meat, hides, and grapes. Our brewery and tannery produce enough beer and leather to allow trade with other towns. The caravans keep us supplied with Oil, Tools, and Pottery, but it's been some time since we've had Wine and Fish available on the market. People are desperate for Hardwood and Wool."
Or something to that effect. So at least the player has some feedback of what is going on with that town.
Towns should have much higher consumption of... basically everything other than grain, as things are right now. They need to be goods sinks, and a lot of the goods that are not produced locally should near always be in high enough demand to warrant bringing them for trade. 1 unit a day does nothing considering workshop production rates. This consumption should also be heavily dependent on prosperity of the town - the higher it is, the more variety of goods the town requires, and the larger amount of each is in demand. Their cultural diversification of preferences should be a thing as well.
Towns also need to be capable of deficit consumption. Meaning going increasingly into negative "consumed" quantity of a specific good, driving up the price, and lowering tax gains from that town. Also increasingly limiting prosperity gain (but not reducing prosperity unless at some "critical" level of deficit) dependent on the magnitude of the deficit.
At 5000+ prosperity, any goods that are not locally produced and available should only go into positives when a caravan just hits the town with 100+ units of it. And not last long after that, either, since the town should immediately address the deficit "spending" of each good by directly removing required quantities from the market.
Give towns "storage" capacity for goods to match at least expected weekly consumption at current prosperity value. Have them restock from any delivery before the rest is allowed back into the marketplace. Hell, give the player ability to either hire one of the gang leaders to set fire to that warehouse, destroying a portion of the "stored" goods, or do it themselves in some manner of night "stealth" mission, as a tool of market speculation.
Construction of projects (including continuous) should increase desire for specific goods, dependent on the project. Recovering villages should increase price for specific goods, and recover faster if they are delivered by the villager party.
Various cultures should have some secondary goods they consume in large quantities based on specific regional resources, to ensure local production maintains profitability. So that Vlandian towns would consume, as example, a lot of oil and horses. Northern empire towns would use much more silk than other factions, since it's so freely available to them. Battanians would take grape baths, because Battanians.
Provide increased LOCAL consumption to make workshops exploiting local village production profitably operational, even in between caravan visits. Just at lower profit, unless nearby towns are at very high prosperity. This should also apply to breweries, not just "trade" goods.
You're working with settings without global trade network. Goods from another side of the map should always be in high demand. Demand driving workshop profitability should not rely on warfare disruption just so they can start breaking even long-term. High prosperity towns should be near always starved for luxury goods that local production cannot supply. Relevant information should be communicated to the player in a clear way (that's what the NPC interactions should be bloody well used for), not hidden behind "Town Management" panel.
The current implementation is not just extremely unintuitive, it may work well in terms of caravans doing their normalization work, but makes workshops extremely ungainly to turn profitable. Trade in general is nickle-and-diming affair in small quantities, instead of the large scale bulk operation it should be when going from one end of the map to the other. Then again, "trade" gameplay should have included large-scale contracts with town merchants and owners, and storage rights along with associated "roguery" gameplay, but that's another tangent.
At least fix economy so that it doesn't just reflect the period settings, and gives a sliver of local flavor to towns through their consumption preferences (also helping local workshops), but it also doesn't throw conflicting information at the player when it bothers to communicate at all.
tl;dr:
- Towns should not be starving when there's cheap food on their internal market.
- Primary notable should provide breakdown of internal consumption and supply situation
- Towns need much higher consumption values, preferably with increased consumption for goods tied to regional production of each faction, and general prosperity value
- Towns should have deficit consumption implementation, driven by prosperity value, allowing for accumulation of internal "demand" for increasing number of units desired and possible to trade at once
- Towns with high levels of deficit accumulations should have slower prosperity growth than those supplied
- Ongoing town projects (including continuous) should increase consumption of specific goods
- Recovering villages should increase consumption of specific goods
- Towns should "store" portion of caravan-delivered goods for near-future expected consumption, also to prevent immediate market price manipulation by the player
Steam Community :: Screenshot :: Economy1
Steam Community: Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord. Economy1
Steam Community :: Screenshot :: Economy2
Steam Community: Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord. Economy2
Steam Community :: Screenshot :: "Let them eat sand" - Tais the emir of Hubyar
Steam Community: Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord. "Let them eat sand" - Tais the emir of Hubyar
Steam Community :: Screenshot :: Sad market state intensifies
Steam Community: Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord. Sad market state intensifies
Two different starving towns, food prices are still at "discount" level. Myzea even has plenty of food on the market, cheap, for some reason.
This is after a daily tick (or several in case of Hubyar). Starving towns, or even towns expected to run out of food in 2-3 days, should immediately attempt to buy out ANY food item still available on the local market (impacting tax gains from that settlements, can't get money from people who just spent a fortune on basic necessities, no matter what my government may think), and apply it toward reduction in local food storage. Pretty ridiculous to see a town starving while 150+ loads of meat are offered dirt-cheap in its markets.
Another major issue I've noticed is that goods consumption is completely off, especially compared to workshop production capacity. Breweries, as the most egregious example in current version, will flood the market in just a few days enough to become unprofitable. There are enough of them on the map to quickly flood the "global" market into long-term unprofitability. Similar issue occurs with most workshops, unless the player spends time fighting against the "economy" with manual good distribution, or is fortunate enough that warfare causes enough disruption and depletion.
On top of that, consumption information is so heavily obfuscated, or completely hidden from the player, unless they are the owner of a town, most of it will be undecipherable.
The leftmost notable should be able to offer a breakdown of economic situation of a town:
"We can rely on our three villages to provide grain, meat, hides, and grapes. Our brewery and tannery produce enough beer and leather to allow trade with other towns. The caravans keep us supplied with Oil, Tools, and Pottery, but it's been some time since we've had Wine and Fish available on the market. People are desperate for Hardwood and Wool."
Or something to that effect. So at least the player has some feedback of what is going on with that town.
Towns should have much higher consumption of... basically everything other than grain, as things are right now. They need to be goods sinks, and a lot of the goods that are not produced locally should near always be in high enough demand to warrant bringing them for trade. 1 unit a day does nothing considering workshop production rates. This consumption should also be heavily dependent on prosperity of the town - the higher it is, the more variety of goods the town requires, and the larger amount of each is in demand. Their cultural diversification of preferences should be a thing as well.
Towns also need to be capable of deficit consumption. Meaning going increasingly into negative "consumed" quantity of a specific good, driving up the price, and lowering tax gains from that town. Also increasingly limiting prosperity gain (but not reducing prosperity unless at some "critical" level of deficit) dependent on the magnitude of the deficit.
At 5000+ prosperity, any goods that are not locally produced and available should only go into positives when a caravan just hits the town with 100+ units of it. And not last long after that, either, since the town should immediately address the deficit "spending" of each good by directly removing required quantities from the market.
Give towns "storage" capacity for goods to match at least expected weekly consumption at current prosperity value. Have them restock from any delivery before the rest is allowed back into the marketplace. Hell, give the player ability to either hire one of the gang leaders to set fire to that warehouse, destroying a portion of the "stored" goods, or do it themselves in some manner of night "stealth" mission, as a tool of market speculation.
Construction of projects (including continuous) should increase desire for specific goods, dependent on the project. Recovering villages should increase price for specific goods, and recover faster if they are delivered by the villager party.
Various cultures should have some secondary goods they consume in large quantities based on specific regional resources, to ensure local production maintains profitability. So that Vlandian towns would consume, as example, a lot of oil and horses. Northern empire towns would use much more silk than other factions, since it's so freely available to them. Battanians would take grape baths, because Battanians.
Provide increased LOCAL consumption to make workshops exploiting local village production profitably operational, even in between caravan visits. Just at lower profit, unless nearby towns are at very high prosperity. This should also apply to breweries, not just "trade" goods.
You're working with settings without global trade network. Goods from another side of the map should always be in high demand. Demand driving workshop profitability should not rely on warfare disruption just so they can start breaking even long-term. High prosperity towns should be near always starved for luxury goods that local production cannot supply. Relevant information should be communicated to the player in a clear way (that's what the NPC interactions should be bloody well used for), not hidden behind "Town Management" panel.
The current implementation is not just extremely unintuitive, it may work well in terms of caravans doing their normalization work, but makes workshops extremely ungainly to turn profitable. Trade in general is nickle-and-diming affair in small quantities, instead of the large scale bulk operation it should be when going from one end of the map to the other. Then again, "trade" gameplay should have included large-scale contracts with town merchants and owners, and storage rights along with associated "roguery" gameplay, but that's another tangent.
At least fix economy so that it doesn't just reflect the period settings, and gives a sliver of local flavor to towns through their consumption preferences (also helping local workshops), but it also doesn't throw conflicting information at the player when it bothers to communicate at all.
tl;dr:
- Towns should not be starving when there's cheap food on their internal market.
- Primary notable should provide breakdown of internal consumption and supply situation
- Towns need much higher consumption values, preferably with increased consumption for goods tied to regional production of each faction, and general prosperity value
- Towns should have deficit consumption implementation, driven by prosperity value, allowing for accumulation of internal "demand" for increasing number of units desired and possible to trade at once
- Towns with high levels of deficit accumulations should have slower prosperity growth than those supplied
- Ongoing town projects (including continuous) should increase consumption of specific goods
- Recovering villages should increase consumption of specific goods
- Towns should "store" portion of caravan-delivered goods for near-future expected consumption, also to prevent immediate market price manipulation by the player
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Most caravans only drop off a handful of goods to remain profitable as increased quantities affect prices so quickly. There might best be a slight delay of a few hours for pricing information to adjust while allowing caravans to carry slightly more goods.
For players selling massive quantities of battle loot it is unlikely to be an issue since it is rare to get more than a handful of duplicate items with normal party/carrying capacity.
For players selling massive quantities of battle loot it is unlikely to be an issue since it is rare to get more than a handful of duplicate items with normal party/carrying capacity.
If you used the deficit mechanic I described in my post above, it would not.
If a town builds up "deficit consumption" amount, that would guarantee large sales for towns which are not constantly supplied by caravans (and profitability of only a few units for those that are), at least until the demand for whatever good is fulfilled (preferably with some "stock" margin for short-term future consumption). After which the price gets adjusted according to market presence of the units that were not used to satisfy the already generated demand.
Nawari
Veteran
THANKS. All this I have experienced, it works very well.
What mattered more to me was to understand how to impact a Kingdom in its economy by holding alleys and workshops for example. What is the relationship between the economy of a Kingdom and the fact of having 4 alleys and workshops in this kingdom?
Can we provoke rebellions with the economy or because we are "very popular" with local notables or local gangs in the cities?
The trading experience and the street occupation system is great, but I'd like to know what impact owning multiple streets can have on a Kingdom.
I suspect that this "bandit" system is not yet fully implemented. We feel that there is a lack of purpose. I have the impression that we have there the opening towards a new game play alternative without Kingdom. But then, I would very much like all the ways of being able to impact the war to be explained one day in a topic.
What would be great is if we could, admittedly with difficulty, find a way that would impose peace. The Rebellion System and house "bandit" system if it develops, might offer a different alternative, don't you feel like it?
This alternative would give even more importance, I believe, to the commercial qualities of the aseraïs who, through trade, subterfuge, the possession of workshops and streets, the support of "popular" rebellions, could have a positive or negative impact on kingdoms, war and peace.
The economy is interesting in this game. It is true that I would like to be able to impact even more on the course of events and even on war and peace with trade and the direct or indirect support of rebellions.
Popularity with notables or gang leaders, I don't always understand the impact on the course of history. If this popularity, at a certain level, made it possible to attempt a rebellion, I understood it better. I don't think that's possible at the moment.
The system "occupations of alleys", and the system "rebellion" should in my opinion be linked with in addition a system of "crafted refuges". In this way, we would have a new way in the game to sow discord in the Kingdoms, cause rebellions, revolts, "against war", "against famine", and also develop our refuge and improve it (all risking its destruction and therefore, we would have to find another refuge).
We could also imagine being only nomadic and having a "traveling camp" (with the risk of being attacked while we sleep).
I have seen mods going in this direction, hopefully we will have a base game implementation of this type of system.
Thank you Taleworld.
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