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Easy Solution to Improve Melee Combat post-1.5 patch

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rektasaurus

Squire
[TDM is] not meant to be a de facto training ground for Skirmish or a Skirmish simulator -because TDM is its own beast and it plays out invariably different from Skirmish.

Unless your location doesn't allow you to feasibly access one of the Skirmish servers, I'd suggest simply queuing up for Skirmish if you want to practice Skirmish.

A small point before going back on topic, skirmish/captain is not an optimal mode to practice fundamentals. TDM is much better suited, due to high likelihood of getting a fight and fast respawn times. Skirmish/captain mode is where the fundamentals are applied. Game sense, teamwork, etc. is what is practiced. TDM is very fun and super necessary as its own game mode for sure.
 

Chaoslian

Veteran
I think the problem is not the shield HP directly but that it's pretty hard to get around shields for 2 reasons.
1) shields are to big to be fun in melee. But you need these big shields against archers, or it will be too easy for them, to shoot you.
2) shields are blocking a bigger area than they should (in melee). Often, you hit a clearly non covered part, and the hit is still blocked. In my opinion, shields should just block, where they are in melee.
 

Hans 77

Knight
WBWF&SVC
I think the problem is not the shield HP directly but that it's pretty hard to get around shields for 2 reasons.
1) shields are to big to be fun in melee. But you need these big shields against archers, or it will be too easy for them, to shoot you.
2) shields are blocking a bigger area than they should (in melee). Often, you hit a clearly non covered part, and the hit is still blocked. In my opinion, shields should just block, where they are in melee.

I don't know how I feel about this.

Shield coverage is already pretty scant, considering archers have an easy time peeking around it and hitting you. Foot-shots and getting tagged by archers shooting from rather benign angles is currently commonplace, so I don't know if reducing shield coverage even further is the right answer.

As far as melee goes, there's definitely moments where I find myself scratching my head. An example is me hitting someone from behind only for my weapon to get blocked by their shield (which they are holding in front of them -obviously). Makes no sense, right? That being said, I can't tell whether this is caused by overabundant shield coverage or by the janky hitboxes (on both the weapons and characters) and unkosher weapon swing animations, since I can also point to other examples of my swings inexplicably missing opponents bumped on the ground only to hit my teammate (who is standing on the other side of them).

On the other side of the coin, there's instances where if you block (with a shield) to the completely wrong side, there's a significant chance your opponent's attack could hit you. In Warband, shields were centered on block input, but in Bannerlord as we know, it's multi-directional, and some of the shields have very exaggerated animations depending on which side you block to. An incorrect input -even with a shield, can still make you very open.
 

Chaoslian

Veteran
Yeah, thats why i said, shields should block where they are in melee. As far as i know there a is a difference if you attack with a projectile or a melee attack. Projectile blocking is assisted with a "magnetic" hitbox. You can even see this sometimes in first person.

Therefore, it would be possible to lower the shield hitbox in melee, without lowering the protection against archers.
And yes, hitboxes of shields are way bigger than the shield. You can test that best with a spear (or any other stab).
 

EbdanianAdmiral

Knight at Arms
I agree with the devs and with some others in this thread. The solution is not a straight downgrade to HP but rather an upgrade to the bonus damage certain weapons can do. A heavier modifier for axes against shields would help a lot. I believe that nearly every faction has an axe perk, so this wouldnt be going super out of the way as an available counter.
 

Occyfel

Veteran
I agree with the devs and with some others in this thread. The solution is not a straight downgrade to HP but rather an upgrade to the bonus damage certain weapons can do. A heavier modifier for axes against shields would help a lot. I believe that nearly every faction has an axe perk, so this wouldnt be going super out of the way as an available counter.
While on the subject of axes, do axes do that much more damage to shields in their current state? I haven't really noticed much change, although I haven't been playing much.
 

azakhi

Internal Tools Development
Developer
M&BWBWF&S
While on the subject of axes, do axes do that much more damage to shields in their current state? I haven't really noticed much change, although I haven't been playing much.

Axes deal 2x the damage. Well, axes with bonus damage to shield flag deal 2x the damage. I think all axes have it but I am not sure.
 
I think strong shields add a lot to team play, plus lets noobs survive for more than a few minutes. If people turtle up you have to flank them, but as Hans noticed, smacking someone from behind doesn't always work.

As far as melee goes, there's definitely moments where I find myself scratching my head. An example is me hitting someone from behind only for my weapon to get blocked by their shield (which they are holding in front of them -obviously). Makes no sense, right? That being said, I can't tell whether this is caused by overabundant shield coverage or by the janky hitboxes (on both the weapons and characters) and unkosher weapon swing animations, since I can also point to other examples of my swings inexplicably missing opponents bumped on the ground only to hit my teammate (who is standing on the other side of them).

On the other side of the coin, there's instances where if you block (with a shield) to the completely wrong side, there's a significant chance your opponent's attack could hit you. In Warband, shields were centered on block input, but in Bannerlord as we know, it's multi-directional, and some of the shields have very exaggerated animations depending on which side you block to. An incorrect input -even with a shield, can still make you very open.
Making the hitbox for shields smaller in melee would make shielding a bit more skill orientated, plus would make killing a cav that is surrounded by 20 infantry slightly easier. TDM should be a fun training ground to learn teamwork and the basics of fighting, and making a fairly tight shield wall is effective, plus noobs can contribute to their team just turtling up.

PS. I wish the bots in Captain would turtle up a bit more.
 

Revverie

Agreed. Sorry for going off topic. I would happy if designers didn't prioritize TDM over any other as long as it is not forgotten.
Azakhi what do you think of shields block range? I feel they're useless against any experienced archer and they will just hit you in the leg or a place you're not covering. Its impossible to guess where its going to shoot next and it becomes frustrating you cant even block at all some things.
 

azakhi

Internal Tools Development
Developer
M&BWBWF&S
Azakhi what do you think of shields block range? I feel they're useless against any experienced archer and they will just hit you in the leg or a place you're not covering. Its impossible to guess where its going to shoot next and it becomes frustrating you cant even block at all some things.

To be honest I haven't played much archers or Skirmish mode. In TDM and Siege although you are right that it s a bit annoying you have to dance around to not get hit even with a shield, there are generally multiple archers from different angles shooting so it is less of an issue for me. I should probably leave it to more experienced players.
 

XDaron

Sergeant Knight
I'd say 2handed classes would be much weaker in tdm if spawnpoints werent ramdom and friendly fire was on
 

WOLFGEIST

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Here's my suggestions, already posted it elsewhere but might as well post it here since it addresses similar issues:


Shock troopers have a perk (or 2h weapons have the trait) of destroying shields much more rapidly, say 3 hits with a shock trooper destroys a shield. You could do the same thing for damage against horses. There's tons of useless perks among shock troopers - Savage has the option of sling, Berserker has the option of 1h sword? Give options of perks, say horse cleaver, shield breaker, arrow blocker, or thick skin (reduced projectile damage). These perks could come with some kind of accessory for identification, for example with Berserkers you could accompany the horse cleaver perk with the Ulfhednar cloak (I know that's potentially a lot of extra art work, but it would be quite cool imo).

If infantry is in the field without shields, the shock troopers will suddenly become much more valuable. Then it becomes a game of archers trying to pick eachother off to allow the shock troopers to hit the infantry. If you're able to sneak into an infantry line with a shock trooper and take out a shield or 2 and kill a horse, it would lend an appropriate identity to that role and mix up the dynamic of combat in what I think would be a fun and interesting way.

If you coupled this with reduced projectile damage to shock troopers (10-20%?) they could have viability and become interesting and meaningful.

Right now, if you look at the enemies team, compositions of archers, cavalry, and infantry all have an effect on your strategy and approach. When you see a shock trooper you pretty much just ignore it, meaning it has no real impact on the game aside from a few throwing weapons which might take out a cav.

Even if you did away with all of the fancy perk changes, just making shock troopers do 150% to horses, shields, and take -20% from projectiles would go a long way in mixing things up and balancing skirmish imo.
 
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