Early End game party size tuning

[nox]

So I've noticed that this mod relies on the tragically broken default party size algos.  The problem with them, that once the player is level 24ish, 500+ reknown ish, the NPC parties are autoadjusted up to about a size of 300-400.  Unless the player stacks cha/int, the player's maximum unit size is going to be around 100-120. 

This causes a major MAJOR stall in early end game forcing the player to cheese combat to compete with the giantish AI armies.

The fix is fairly straightforward, and is a huge ease to gameplay.    Pendor does it, as do many other mods.

The most trivial change is to give +1 max party size for 2 reknown.  If you want to complicate it, let the player use leadership to lower troop cost, enhance movement rate of infantry units, etc.  There are plenty of options that don't suck.

What I did in BK was I gave the player increased limits, and ALSO let them carry up to 2x their 'soft cap' in prisoners and troops, but at a big cost to movement speed.  Also, any additional units over leadership cap didn't count towards tactics calculation.  It's a nice touch because it counts as 'reserves'.

anyhow, cheers.

 

[Alex the Seeker]

even if the player party size is lower than most lords, it doesn`t feel like stalling the game or anything o.o

because it mostly depends on the quality of your troops than quantity
altho this makes defeating some Legendary Spawns quite a pain in the arse.

also the stall in early-game will most likely be because you can`t have large armies (unless only cavalry) because of movement speed, if an amazon party catches your tier 2-3 50sth archers and infantry, well you are gonna be in a world of pain.

plus stacking INT is pretty helpful, because of the healer talents, surgery is a must have in this mod, and waiting for companions on it aint a smart idea.
the prisoners are fine, since it increases exponentially with troops if i recall correctly " and the  let them carry up to 2x their 'soft cap' in prisoners and troops, but at a big cost to movement speed." feels like cheating, since if you already have that many prisoners most likely no party will attack you since you are stronger, plus the trade-off if you are indeed defeated due to low movement speed and can`t escape, well i would rather not give 100some prisoners to my enemies 

 

[T.L.S.]

Starting your own kingdom gives you +100 party size for free (and lowering morale drops), also with full noble start (all 1st line choices due creation) you have 6 in leadership from the begining, and there is alot of possibilities to increase your renown - from anigilation of large minor spawns like Nibor Hood with his bandits or massacre of Zann Vanguards (xbowmen and heavy infantry or bunch of heavy cavalry strongly recommended for that) to different random events.

 

[nox]

even if the player party size is lower than most lords, it doesn`t feel like stalling the game or anything o.o

because it mostly depends on the quality of your troops than quantity

You're arguing my point without realizing it.

Yes, if you cheese combat by using units that have outlier stats that can defeat 2-3 times their number, it works...  as I said.
The complete breakdown of that is that

a) the player cannot afford any attrition
b) it eliminates all other game play options other than "use these overpowered units"

...

also the stall in early-game will most likely be because you can`t have large armies (unless only cavalry) because of movement speed, if an amazon party catches your tier 2-3 50sth archers and infantry, well you are gonna be in a world of pain.

plus stacking INT is pretty helpful, because of the healer talents, surgery is a must have in this mod, and waiting for companions on it aint a smart idea.
the prisoners are fine, since it increases exponentially with troops if i recall correctly " and the  let them carry up to 2x their 'soft cap' in prisoners and troops, but at a big cost to movement speed." feels like cheating, since if you already have that many prisoners most likely no party will attack you since you are stronger, plus the trade-off if you are indeed defeated due to low movement speed and can`t escape, well i would rather not give 100some prisoners to my enemies 

Well, all that being said I respecfully disagree.  The unit size is a very poor game mechanic to hinge balance around because it's a hard and arbitrary limit and doesn't scale (in native) with the rest of the game. 

If a player wishes to run a larger unit of less quality units, that should be their option to do so.  Removing that game play option doesn't enhance the game, it only enforces the narrow success path that was a design problem with Native.

So, take the suggestions for what they are.  For me personally to enjoy this mod that is a change I would have to make.  That's because I've extensively played with that change and it completely changes the headroom in early end game and is really a fairly major improvement to play experience.  Despite the assumptions, it really doesn't make the game easier - it only permits alternative strategies than to have a full stack of heavy cav.

 

[Theo H]

All if did in my game was replace the whole script related to Ai lord parties with the native one.
It also fixed some of the AI bugs like them never leaving their fiefs or rarely participating in military campaigns. Also leave economic changes off....having it on can hurt the Ai lords.

Gameplay was much better.

 

[Alex the Seeker]

Spoiler

even if the player party size is lower than most lords, it doesn`t feel like stalling the game or anything o.o

because it mostly depends on the quality of your troops than quantity

Spoiler

You're arguing my point without realizing it.

Yes, if you cheese combat by using units that have outlier stats that can defeat 2-3 times their number, it works...  as I said.
The complete breakdown of that is that

a) the player cannot afford any attrition
b) it eliminates all other game play options other than "use these overpowered units"

...

also the stall in early-game will most likely be because you can`t have large armies (unless only cavalry) because of movement speed, if an amazon party catches your tier 2-3 50sth archers and infantry, well you are gonna be in a world of pain.

plus stacking INT is pretty helpful, because of the healer talents, surgery is a must have in this mod, and waiting for companions on it aint a smart idea.
the prisoners are fine, since it increases exponentially with troops if i recall correctly " and the  let them carry up to 2x their 'soft cap' in prisoners and troops, but at a big cost to movement speed." feels like cheating, since if you already have that many prisoners most likely no party will attack you since you are stronger, plus the trade-off if you are indeed defeated due to low movement speed and can`t escape, well i would rather not give 100some prisoners to my enemies 

Well, all that being said I respecfully disagree.  The unit size is a very poor game mechanic to hinge balance around because it's a hard and arbitrary limit and doesn't scale (in native) with the rest of the game. 

If a player wishes to run a larger unit of less quality units, that should be their option to do so.  Removing that game play option doesn't enhance the game, it only enforces the narrow success path that was a design problem with Native.

So, take the suggestions for what they are.  For me personally to enjoy this mod that is a change I would have to make.  That's because I've extensively played with that change and it completely changes the headroom in early end game and is really a fairly major improvement to play experience.  Despite the assumptions, it really doesn't make the game easier - it only permits alternative strategies than to have a full stack of heavy cav.

what i meant was that in early game, unless you invest heavily into path-finding or get only cavalry, you will be caught in terms of map movement speed by other enemy parties, if you get like what 60 tier 1 though 3 troops (infantry and archers), and you are caught by a 40 strong amazon party, you will be decimated.
and it is not because of Numbers but because of Quality.

but each with his own preference, i don`t mind the party limit, and very rarely i reached the cap, due to constantly fighting and losing troops.

 

[zincra]

i have party limit 452. But i have 150-160 tropps in party becouse morale and money. my party cost 13k, what about long term players.  If i have 8k renown should i have 4k troops? Right now it all good.

 

[Silberfalke]

Spoiler

So I've noticed that this mod relies on the tragically broken default party size algos.  The problem with them, that once the player is level 24ish, 500+ reknown ish, the NPC parties are autoadjusted up to about a size of 300-400.  Unless the player stacks cha/int, the player's maximum unit size is going to be around 100-120. 

This causes a major MAJOR stall in early end game forcing the player to cheese combat to compete with the giantish AI armies.

The fix is fairly straightforward, and is a huge ease to gameplay.    Pendor does it, as do many other mods.

The most trivial change is to give +1 max party size for 2 reknown.  If you want to complicate it, let the player use leadership to lower troop cost, enhance movement rate of infantry units, etc.  There are plenty of options that don't suck.

What I did in BK was I gave the player increased limits, and ALSO let them carry up to 2x their 'soft cap' in prisoners and troops, but at a big cost to movement speed.  Also, any additional units over leadership cap didn't count towards tactics calculation.  It's a nice touch because it counts as 'reserves'.

anyhow, cheers.

First of all, thank you for trying to help and put some effort into those suggestions.

In Perisno some changes have already been made that might also be helpfull in terms of
the party-size problem. Those haven't been implemented per se to deal with it, but when
used, they have this effect.
As a player that prefers quality over quantity I think I still get your point...
So, as a king, you get a heavily increased party size limit, comparable to those of AI kings.
As Perisno isn't meant to be that easy, those bandit spawns are meant to be a challenge,
however small in numbers, they can defeat even bigger player parties, meaning that one
has to think well before passing through a certain area of the map were they are likely to
be found (-->Amazons).
Before being king however there is no bonus for party-size and even after, there is always
the morale issue to deal with when having a big party. Therefore, to slightly improve the limit
with a smaller renown gain is a suggestion that we will take into consideration.
In 0.7 we will be using the "Hunting Mod" as well which will add a huge variety and amount of
food, that will give those larger player parties a significant morale-boost.
There already are powerful mercenaries in the game to compensate losses. An improved
financial system that allows the player more sources of income will as well be implemented
and right now is in its final stage of testing. This will help to afford larger numbers of troops...
Also...there are some "unconventional"ways as well to gain renown quicker, such as random
events that may increase it by choosing the right option, as well as the possibility of great "solos"
as not all of these unique spawns are really well protected by ranged units...just a hint...  

Hope that helped and motivated to stay with Perisno...

 

[habeo123]

It will take more extensive tests to figure out the correct renown/limit rate. Currently it sits at 25/1 which I considered a bit too low for the normal use. We're testing around 10-20/1 and see whether that make a huge impact on the gameplay.

However soon after you become the ruler, it shouldn't matter as you will most likely not carrying your full party size.
Another factor to come is of course Prisoner. In Perisno prisoner is proportional to current party size which means bigger size = more prisoner. That's why you will be carrying just 1-2 prisoner at start, but 150+ prisoner when you have decent skill and a well sized army. That is something that I think is keeping the balance in prisoner grinding.

 

[LukeFerreira]

You're arguing my point without realizing it.

Yes, if you cheese combat by using units that have outlier stats that can defeat 2-3 times their number, it works...  as I said.
The complete breakdown of that is that

a) the player cannot afford any attrition
b) it eliminates all other game play options other than "use these overpowered units"


Well, all that being said I respecfully disagree.  The unit size is a very poor game mechanic to hinge balance around because it's a hard and arbitrary limit and doesn't scale (in native) with the rest of the game. 

If a player wishes to run a larger unit of less quality units, that should be their option to do so.  Removing that game play option doesn't enhance the game, it only enforces the narrow success path that was a design problem with Native.

So, take the suggestions for what they are.  For me personally to enjoy this mod that is a change I would have to make.  That's because I've extensively played with that change and it completely changes the headroom in early end game and is really a fairly major improvement to play experience.  Despite the assumptions, it really doesn't make the game easier - it only permits alternative strategies than to have a full stack of heavy cav.

Even with overpowered units you'll still need to use tactics and probably run a lot from the enemy before the endless skirmish can actually become a final stand... One can only wonder what fighting against the demonish army of the Dreaded One could do to the morale of mere men.

How much is enough for you though? From my experience minor lords carry around 100 troops, powerful lords 200 troops, marshals 200~300 and kings usually have around 400 troops.

Asking a lord to follow you is free and a lot more effective than recruiting hundreds of recruits to the slaughter, unless you want spawns for every single army to be increased like in Blood and Steel, in that case you'll probably have to modify the game files, but I would wait until 0.7 in this case so you don't have to do it all over again after the update.

 

[Ranter]

my limiting issue is almost always moral and food not unit cap, that said I do agree that something needs to be adjusted because as it stands using top tier troops is the only strategy that the player can employ with great success. Using large numbers of low tier troops causes a moral hit + food loss + heavy casualties and difficult fights + heavy financial costs due to replenishment of both food and casualties.

Also some top tier troops are almost invulnerable to t1-t3 troops which again forces the player to use top tier troops or nothing.

 

[Naves Blade]

Thats right! I carry around 250 troops and to maintain moral i have to fight constantly and still moral remains at average most of the time. But this is not the main issue here . I have to go from town to town in search of food and at time all of tolrania towns were out of food. 
But i believe this is fixed in the version 0.7 as i seen they are adding military supplies and large quantity of food to solve both food and moral issue.

 

[Anneli]

I wonder if i am only one who actualy try to keep surgery at around 20-30 % ( with companions who might have it ) . Its a personal preference naturaly . Makes me value my elite troops and send them only when its either last resort or fighting some one like enemy king or marshal. Because of that i carry lots of lower tier troops with me ( Those argh moments where  your future knights who killed archers meet a reinfrocement wave of halberdiers/pikeneers. ). Hells :p. if i have room to spare i even have use for bandits and such who are some times saved. They serve in the proud division of arrow catchers and cavalry baiters.    So personaly i would prefer larger party size at early stage.  But thats just my personal preference on how to play .    In later stages ( became king and such ) its usualy enough at the moment.