Early Access as defined by Tale Worlds

[AxiosXiphos]

If TaleWorlds had left their Early Access statement at JUST the first paragraph AND charged a reasonable price for an alpha stage game, all would be fine. But TaleWorlds didn't, TaleWorlds went to extreme lengths to say how great the game currently is so they can charge a premium price. The game is currently not finished enough to be enjoyable , rather the current game is extremely frustrating. The current game is a largely a la t skeleton framework with partial flesh out of the pieces. Only with modding is the game possible to be enjoyed, and playing the mod shuffle game is extremely frustrating.

I play almost all the other Early Access games mentioned in this thread, not a single one of those other games tries to mislead customers nor do any of those other games try to charge premium price$ for an alpha stage game that at least 3-4 years from being finished to a gold state.

The first 2 paragraphs from TaleWorlds is where TaleWorlds should have stopped their Early Access statement:
----------------------
Why Early Access?
“Early access is something that we are very familiar with: our first title, Mount & Blade, helped to pioneer this method of release back in 2005. By working alongside our community we were able to deliver a unique gaming experience that players still enjoy to this day. These past experiences have taught us that it is vital to bring players in to help us iron out any issues and refine the game by utilizing feedback to bring it to the level that both our community and we expect.

"We are hoping to run a productive and efficient early access for M&B Bannerlord as well. However, due to the nature and scale of game that we have envisioned, there may be various problems or missing features and content during the course of early access."
--------------------------------------------

The rest after the first 2 paragraph is where TaleWolds starts to mislead people. Note, the last sentence of the second paragraph was omitted. As that sentence is where TaleWorlds is going wrong. That bold sentence is all TaleWorlds needed to say, but NO..TaleWorlds went on at length to explain how the current game is playable and by doing so (along with the 1 year statement) are implying the game is close to be finished.

Just fricking say "There is missing content and bugs". Its not too late TaleWorlds, go back and remove all that other crap and stop misleading new customers.

Pretty sure that 90% of the folks that bought into early access Bannerlord only did so because the playing the previous M&B titles and were itching for another version. TaleWorlds took advantage of this fan base of the previous games by charging too much $ for a game that many years away from being gold status. That is called not appreciating your customers.


TaleWorlds states they are shooting for 1 year, while no one expects 1 year to be accurate...There needs to be ball park...

So let us judge this ball park figure of 1 year by the current progress.

3.5 months have went by since release.


How much missing content has been filled in those 3.5 months?

Maybe 1 item, half way fleshed out with more work to go.

Fact is, the majority of the current game development is big fixing.


This game is 3-4 years away from getting all the missing content in and bug squashing and balancing. Highly doubt all the content mentioned and currently missing will ever get added in because the funding will dry up OR they will release paid DLC to include the content missing... content that was supposed to be part of the original game.

Shame on you TaleWorlds. Most of us are not new to the Early Access world, I certainly am not. The other early access games I play do not mislead people with early access statements implying the game is close to finished nor they charge outrageous price for a no where close to be finished game.

You could apply for a refund anytime - literally just message them. Stop whining and actually do something if you care that much.

Obviously you just want to be a troll though.

 

[MostBlunted]

You could apply for a refund anytime - literally just message them. Stop whining and actually do something if you care that much.

Obviously you just want to be a troll though.

Not true, I tried. Maybe if you bought it from their own site?

 

[Talbrys]

If TaleWorlds had left their Early Access statement at JUST the first two paragraphs AND charged a reasonable price for an alpha stage game, all would be fine. But TaleWorlds didn't, TaleWorlds went to extreme lengths to say how great the game currently is so they can charge a premium price. The game is currently not finished enough to be enjoyable , rather the current game is extremely frustrating. The current game is a largely a skeleton framework with partial flesh out of the pieces. Only with modding is the game possible to be enjoyed, and playing the mod shuffle game is extremely frustrating.

I play almost all the other Early Access games mentioned in this thread, not a single one of those other games tries to mislead customers nor do any of those other games try to charge premium price$ for an alpha stage game that at least 3-4 years from being finished to a gold state.

The first 2 paragraphs from TaleWorlds is where TaleWorlds should have stopped their Early Access statement:
----------------------
Why Early Access?
“Early access is something that we are very familiar with: our first title, Mount & Blade, helped to pioneer this method of release back in 2005. By working alongside our community we were able to deliver a unique gaming experience that players still enjoy to this day. These past experiences have taught us that it is vital to bring players in to help us iron out any issues and refine the game by utilizing feedback to bring it to the level that both our community and we expect.

"We are hoping to run a productive and efficient early access for M&B Bannerlord as well. However, due to the nature and scale of game that we have envisioned, there may be various problems or missing features and content during the course of early access."
--------------------------------------------

The rest after the first 2 paragraph is where TaleWolds starts to mislead people. Note, the last sentence of the second paragraph was omitted. As that sentence is where TaleWorlds is going wrong. That bold sentence is all TaleWorlds needed to say, but NO..TaleWorlds went on at length to explain how the current game is playable and by doing so (along with the 1 year statement) are implying the game is close to be finished.

Just fricking say "There is missing content and bugs". Its not too late TaleWorlds, go back and remove all that other crap and stop misleading new customers.

Pretty sure that 90% of the folks that bought into early access Bannerlord only did so because of playing the previous M&B titles and were itching for another version. TaleWorlds took advantage of this fan base of the previous games by charging too much $ for a game that many years away from being gold status. That is called not appreciating your customers.


TaleWorlds states they are shooting for 1 year, while no one expects 1 year to be accurate...There needs to be ball park...

So let us judge this ball park figure of 1 year by the current progress.

3.5 months have went by since release.


How much missing content has been filled in those 3.5 months?

Maybe 1 item, half way fleshed out with more work to go.

Fact is, the majority of the current game development is big fixing.


This game is 3-4 years away from getting all the missing content in and bug squashing and balancing. Highly doubt all the content mentioned and currently missing will ever get added in because the funding will dry up OR they will release paid DLC to include the content missing... content that was supposed to be part of the original game.

Shame on you TaleWorlds. Most of us are not new to the Early Access world, I certainly am not. The other early access games I play do not mislead people with early access statements implying the game is close to finished nor they charge outrageous price for a no where close to be finished game.

They didn't mislead anyone, the disclaimer was clear and accurate. They didn't say the game is "great" currently. They said it's full of bugs and missing major features and if you wanted a complete game you shouldn't buy it yet. The game is and was perfectly playable and enjoyable in it's current state, IF you don't load it up thinking it's a full game. And up until they began redoing the code (which I'm sure wasn't planned) they were beginning to introduce more and more features and qol improvements instead of just bug fixes. It makes perfect sense to hold off on further features and even most bug fixes until they are done redoing the code as there's no guarantee the new code wouldn't break everything they released.

Also, if you didn't want to pay full price for an alpha why did you hit "purchase?" TW didn't put a gun to your head and make you. You did that on your own.

Pretty sure that 90% of the folks that are crying about early access Bannerlord only bought it because of playing the previous M&B titles and were itching for another version.

ftfy

 

[Bob Gnarly]

Tbh the pricing isn't even really an argument as you are still buying the full product, it just isn't delivered until later down the line. In some ways it's actually a better deal to buy it now so you can play a part in it's creation over those who only buy it when it's done.

Agreed.

People keep bringing up the pricing. Well if it's too much, don't buy it. Some people act like they were forced to make the purchase, like the decision was out of their hands or something.

It's clearly stated on the Steam page that this is an unfinished product and may never be finished, so if you're not excited to play the game in it's current state of development, then wait for release. Yet here we are, tears all over the forum because certain parts of the game are not finished.

 

[kreamy]

Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord on Steam

A strategy/action RPG. Create a character, engage in diplomacy, craft, trade and conquer new lands in a vast medieval sandbox. Raise armies to lead into battle and command and fight alongside your troops in massive real-time battles using a deep but intuitive skill-based combat system.

store.steampowered.com

Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
“While we do not have a set date for a full release at this moment in time, we expect that the game will be in early access for around a year. Our focus is on ensuring that the game is fun and enjoyable rather than imposing a deadline that might have a negative impact on the final product.”


--- Tale Worlds has shown over the 3 months since Early Access release that Bannerlord is FAR from finished and will be in Early Access far beyond 1 year at the current rate of development.

Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
“There is no plan to change pricing after early access.”

--From searching Steam, I can find no other games at this price cost of Bannerlord in early access. Tale Worlds is charging a premium Cost$ for a game that is multi-years away from being complete and is lying to customers by:

1. Not accurately letting customers know the game is alpha stage
2. Not accurately projecting a time line to completion



In closing, I am fine with Bannerlord taking multi-years to complete. Am not fine with Tale Worlds not letting customers know the game is still Alpha stage, not letting customers know the true time lines to completion and most importantly charging premium cost$ for an alpha stage game.






--

I dunno - its early access, technically it is passed the beta (having participated in the beta myself!!!!!!!)

I think its totally retarded regardless. I am more concerned that they say there is an abudnace of features when there is basically **** all (and less than warband IMO)

 

[sanalaismine]

I was looking at the main forum page and got the feeling of almost like this;

"Oh my, oh my! I am so impatient, I want to buy early early earliest access of MB Westeros and scream about it isn't out yet."

It's actually so fun in a perspective, more fun than the game itself ATM. My exact yardstick is that page from now on. When the game starts to be more fun than ridiculous topic names, I'll count it out from EA period.

 

[Skjuld]

I stopped playing BL weeks ago. Guess what ? I bought into another EA game, Shipbreaker. It's unfinished, it lacks content (only 2 ships and Act 1) but I already clocked in as much hours as in BL. It was priced 20 Euros, not 50. Like Grim Dawn, another game I bought in EA. And both of those games were lacking content, but were quite playable and enjoyable and had a clear roadmap.
BL is full price, claims a lot about features, while most of the mechanics are clunky or not implemented, and has a very vague roadmap.
Well, anyway, I'm out for the foreseeable future.
Cya ! Have fun with the flame wars (which seems to be the most active part of the game)

 

[babelfisch]

I stopped playing BL weeks ago. Guess what ? I bought into another EA game, Shipbreaker. It's unfinished, it lacks content (only 2 ships and Act 1) but I already clocked in as much hours as in BL. It was priced 20 Euros, not 50. Like Grim Dawn, another game I bought in EA. And both of those games were lacking content, but were quite playable and enjoyable and had a clear roadmap.
BL is full price, claims a lot about features, while most of the mechanics are clunky or not implemented, and has a very vague roadmap.
Well, anyway, I'm out for the foreseeable future.
Cya ! Have fun with the flame wars (which seems to be the most active part of the game)

The thing is, Shipbreaker will probably remain at ~25€ after full release, just like Grim Dawn did. TW is aiming for a full release worth 50€, I don't see why they should give you a 50% discount just because you are able to play the game before it's released.

 

[Mikey]

I don't see why they should give you a 50% discount just because you are able to play the game before it's released.

Because they chose to release under a scheme where they get to cash in early. Which was their choice. Just like the original M&B, which was quite cheap and gradually increased in price as it neared completion. A process TW explicitly referenced in their EA description.

 

[Skjuld]

The thing is, Shipbreaker will probably remain at ~25€ after full release, just like Grim Dawn did. TW is aiming for a full release worth 50€, I don't see why they should give you a 50% discount just because you are able to play the game before it's released.

Yep but the complete Grim Dawn is sold for 55 Euros. They've spread the price all along development, depending on the content available. For BL, you have to fork the price of GD including all DLCs for something that's not even working as well as GD's first EA version.
Based on the price and announcements, you'd expect something alreay quite advanced, if not yet complete. It's not.

 

[babelfisch]

Because they chose to release under a scheme where they get to cash in early. Which was their choice. Just like the original M&B, which was quite cheap and gradually increased in price as it neared completion. A process TW explicitly referenced in their EA description.

Doesn't make much sense. In a year (assuming everything goes well) you will have the same version of the game like someone who buys the full release. The only difference is that you had the chance to play earlier. Why should you pay less for that?

 

[babelfisch]

Yep but the complete Grim Dawn is sold for 55 Euros. They've spread the price all along development, depending on the content available. For BL, you have to fork the price of GD including all DLCs for something that's not even working as well as GD's first EA version.
Based on the price and announcements, you'd expect something alreay quite advanced, if not yet complete. It's not.

Compared to some other EA games I've seen the game is far more advanced. Doesn't mean there aren't better examples such as Grim Dawn, but I believe there is no 'standard' when it comes to early access. By the way, Steam even states that a game may get cancelled without the option of refunds AFAIK. Imagine the outrage...

PS
I checked steam price history and it seems like the game was never above 25€. Are you sure about that?

 

[Mikey]

Doesn't make much sense.

Yes, stay true to type.

In a year (assuming everything goes well)

That's a hell of an assumption given what we've seen so far

you will have the same version of the game like someone who buys the full release The only difference is that you had the chance to play earlier. Why should you pay less for that?

Are you serious? Because I bought a broken product without the benefit of knowing what it was. IE I trusted the developer to create a good product. And that's in your hypothetical "all will be well in a year" scenario (more like eight months now). Which seems insanely optimistic given the glacial progress so far. For a (relatively generous) list of what the last three-and-a-half months or so have given us, see this topic: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/new-content-since-release-analysis.427234/

And yet your activity consists of arguing with people when they are unhappy with the (lack of) progress, with there being no roadmap, communications, community involvement or anything of the sort.

Still not sure what your motivations are, but I suspect you don't even know yourself.

 

[Skjuld]

Compared to some other EA games I've seen the game is far more advanced. Doesn't mean there aren't better examples such as Grim Dawn, but I believe there is no 'standard' when it comes to early access. By the way, Steam even states that a game may get cancelled without the option of refunds AFAIK. Imagine the outrage...

PS
I checked steam price history and it seems like the game was never above 25€. Are you sure about that?

Including DLCs, yes. The price of the original went up a bit, then they added two DLCs that complement the game very nicely. The whole package goes for that price. We may argue about how the pricing is done, I think that of Crate is much more user-friendly. The DLCs are not cosmetic, they add whole acts.
And ok, some games fail in EA. Should we not comment about the good ones vs the mediocre or very bad ones? I'd very much have liked BL to be one of the good ones (even if it took time) but ATM, it goes into the mediocre/failing category

 

[babelfisch]

Yes, stay true to type.

That's a hell of an assumption given what we've seen so far

Seems to be a comprehension problem because if it's 1 year or 2 years is completely irrelevant to the point I made.

At this point it's clear that you no longer read my posts but simply look for things to disagree with, which makes further discussion pointless.

 

[babelfisch]

Including DLCs, yes. The price of the original went up a bit, then they added two DLCs that complement the game very nicely. The whole package goes for that price. We may argue about how the pricing is done, I think that of Crate is much more user-friendly. The DLCs are not cosmetic, they add whole acts.

So it's not really comparable, I assume there will be DLCs for Bannerlord as well though.

And ok, some games fail in EA. Should we not comment about the good ones vs the mediocre or very bad ones? I'd very much have liked BL to be one of the good ones (even if it took time) but ATM, it goes into the mediocre/failing category

Yes, I meant there are positive and negative examples for early access. M&B is probably somewhere in the middle. It's not as bad as some people want it to be. Which doesn't mean we should shut up and stop criticising. While not everyone or everything can be the best, you should always try to be better and feedback certainly helps with that.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

So it's not really comparable, I assume there will be DLCs for Bannerlord as well though.


Yes, I meant there are positive and negative examples for early access. M&B is probably somewhere in the middle. It's not as bad as some people want it to be. Which doesn't mean we should shut up and stop criticising. While not everyone or everything can be the best, you should always try to be better and feedback certainly helps with that.

I have experienced multiple EA games just die off and a number of others spending years in EA with very little progress. The fact that Bannerlord will be released one day already puts it half-way up the ratings. Some people have (by my standards) ridiculously high standards for EA which in my mind tends to mean barely functional.

Rim world and 7dtd were both success stories from EA but man they were in EA a long time...

 

[Skjuld]

Yes, I meant there are positive and negative examples for early access. M&B is probably somewhere in the middle. It's not as bad as some people want it to be. Which doesn't mean we should shut up and stop criticising. While not everyone or everything can be the best, you should always try to be better and feedback certainly helps with that.

It's mostly that I'm terribly disappointed. I played an awful lot of M&B, Warband and VC. I used to admire how Armagan had managed to whip up such a game with so few means. With a decent crew, TW seems to be floundering. And they also seem to have tried to rebuild all the basic blocks of M&B from a blank slate... With haphazard and inconvincing results. It makes me quite sad and I don't get a good feeling from where it's going.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

It's mostly that I'm terribly disappointed. I played an awful lot of M&B, Warband and VC. I used to admire how Armagan had managed to whip up such a game with so few means. With a decent crew, TW seems to be floundering. And they also seem to have tried to rebuild all the basic blocks of M&B from a blank slate... With haphazard and inconvincing results. It makes me quite sad and I don't get a good feeling from where it's going.

Id say that your disappointment with the project so far is understandable - but slowly or not it is moving in the right direction. It might take another two years but we will get the bannerlord we wanted :

 

[Bloc]

You could apply for a refund anytime - literally just message them. Stop whining and actually do something if you care that much.

You can't, unless you have a pretty valid claim like it's not working on your hardware for some reason even though it advertised as, or if they have no intention to support your region in MP servers etc.