Dual wielding, pros and cons why it wasn't used inside a specialized unit.

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Bromden 说:
If you need comparison videos for that, try pursuing an activity with less importance on movement.

Heh, I do not need them, I asked for them on purpose, for a purpose :smile:

Bromden 说:
until you started worshipping his footprints here.

How is stating who a man is and what he does worship?

I merely stated who the man is in the community and what he did for HEMA in the past decades.

You are the one who started to criticize a fencing instructor.

Bromden 说:
(Are you sure it's me who's biased and not you?)

Nah.
 
My bad, I thought that thinking someone to be without faults and violently defending that stance is a form of worship.
 
Where did I even imply that he was a perfect specimen of Man?

How was my defense of him violent or even energetic?

I basically just said: "Bromden dude, this guy teaches historical fencing brah, I think he knows his stuff."
 
Yes, basically you said that, in a blunt and arrogant way, with not taking anything I said into count.
 
Bombren!

Bombren...

tumblr_nmpby7WrQs1tpdqt1o1_500.gif


 
I wonder if this dual-wielding thread will go the distance of over 400 pages like that other dual-wielding thread...
 
I'm surprised it's gotten this far.
Sure, it's probably practical if you know what you're doing, like any martial art, but it does require alot of space and any friendlies about are probably just going to get in the way.
 
I don't think most applications of HEMA as we know it were for situations with many friendlies. Fiore talks about fighting in tournaments in his introduction, other manuals are focussed on duals or self defence weapons like sword and buckler.

A skirmish line sort of distance would mean anyone you're defending yourself with would probably not get your sword in their eye, at least.
 
Oh dear  :???: At least the guys in the second video have a certain dynamic in their fight ...
The guys in the first one on the other hand ...  :facepalm:

BTT: Please notice that both fighters in a Scissor/Retiarus-pairing are dual wielding :wink:
 
Ililsa 说:
I don't think most applications of HEMA as we know it were for situations with many friendlies. Fiore talks about fighting in tournaments in his introduction, other manuals are focussed on duals or self defence weapons like sword and buckler.
I wonder if the skills are just more easily transferred from individual combat to group combat. In a melee where they may be little space, due to successive ranks pushing forward on both sides, people being pushed all over the place, no real room to move (just like a couple of rock concerts I've been to...), a person who is trained to find the small openings in an opponents defences in single-combat may be more adroit at exploiting any openings in a battle line.

I might be wrong but it is food for thought.
 
That's my impression as well. I have limited experience regarding group "fighting" but having trained a martial art (HEMA) before helped me a lot. Learn to walk before you can run. The principles of fighting stay the same.
There isn't much time for singling out an individual opponent to "work" with but as you said you watch for openings and opportunities a trained fighter is much more versed to recognise. It should tell us a lot that historical soldiers who were trained for formation combat trained single combat as well. We know of Roman legionaries being trained by ex-gladiators i. e.single combat experts.
 
RC-1136 说:
That's my impression as well. I have limited experience regarding group "fighting" but having trained a martial art (HEMA) before helped me a lot. Learn to walk before you can run. The principles of fighting stay the same.
There isn't much time for singling out an individual opponent to "work" with but as you said you watch for openings and opportunities a trained fighter is much more versed to recognise. It should tell us a lot that historical soldiers who were trained for formation combat trained single combat as well. We know of Roman legionaries being trained by ex-gladiators i. e.single combat experts.

The principle may remain the same, but the dynamics are totally different. In the premodern battelfield, "formation is everything", as noted by countless military commanders ranging from the ancient Greeks and Romans, to Napoleon.

Finding an opening, advancing, attacking, or retreating, is not the soldier's job/responsibility. It's the officer's job. Soldiers do what they are told. Doesn't matter if a soldier sees a ripe, gaping, open hole in the enemy ranks or not. A good soldier in military combat is a soldier that follows orders. The worst soldier is the one that breaks formation. There's a reason why armies trained in formations repeatedly, over and over and over again.

Besides, the larger the number of forces maintained as troops. the more difficult it was to train them. Certainly it cannot be expected every soldier in an army that numbers in tens of thousands, can be skilled or trained enough in fancy moves for combat. When it goes down to six digit numbers of forces like the Chinese did in the Warring States period, you don't really expect any of them to be trained like a -- "gladiator."

It is why military combat maneuvers are kept simple and straight, easy to learn and memorize, and easy to practice in the field and become proficient at. Think of combat training with bayonet-fixed rifles. You don't teach the soldiers to twirl around, jump, roll, do fancy different stances with bayonets. At heart, it's essentially some 5~6 simple variations from what is essentially just two key moves -- "block" and "stab". If the commander worries a soldier may fail in doing that in battle, he doesn't teach the soldier to use more variety of techinques with the bayonet -- he drills the unit so they can support each other and prevent that from happening as a unit.

It's essentially the same with shields and spears. Spear, shield, and a sword as a side-arm. Stay in formation, the "pointy end of the spear goes into the bad guy", and hold the formation.

Simple, but powerful. No need to teach soldiers to use two weapons in each hand. Maybe the soldiers can have a chance to do that AFTER the enemy breaks and starts routing, and everyone breaks formation to give chase. But certainly no military commander or general is going to allow soldiers to do that fancy **** before the fight is over. It's inefficient, and basically not worth it.

In a sense, the favored method and equipment of military scale combat is a result of tens of thousands of years of trial and error humans went through, as they've experimented with a variety of things since the stone and bronze ages to find out which works, and which doesn't. Obviously, tight spear and shield formations of real "soldiers" in mass combat works. Individualized combat and fancy **** with "warriors" doesn't.
 
Úlfheðinn 说:
In a classic medieval or earlier battle (large scale battle), you're standing close to other people (or at the very least trying to maintain some sort of formation), so you can't move very much and you can't wave your two swords or weapons around very well, hence it was probably more effective to just have a shield and weapon instead of two weapons at once.

Two weapons of equal length are hard to wield at the same time (especially two full length swords) because you have to keep your weapons from hitting each other or getting in the way of each other (hence the classic rapier/dagger combo, the dagger is small enough to not present much of an issue).

Unrelated, but is your avatar based on a real tattoo/norse symbol that's been found?
 
AelleCyning 说:
Unrelated, but is your avatar based on a real tattoo/norse symbol that's been found?
The first few months I was here I thought he was a women advocating against breast cancer.
 
Nah, it's just a rune serpent drawn (written?) by Gule a while ago, since it was pretty much my first avatar here, I've just kept it for old's time's sake.  :razz:

I do think he looked at some of the runestones that have been persevered to get an idea of what to draw, but I'm not aware of a specific one he was inspired by or used as reference.



Vraelomon 说:
The first few months I was here I thought he was a women advocating against breast cancer.

:lol:
 
Bromden 说:
It was insufferabbly boring, and that minute or two I listened to without falling asleep was from a very amateurish point of view. And when he waved the swords around, it became obvious that he has nothing to do with wielding a sword.

I am quoting this because I feel the need to contribute, bear with me.

Bromdens posts made quite some sense, especially about the general lack of intent in HEMA. It probably boils down to that there is no good ruleset for fighting with sharp weapons which would emulate the real thing imo. But I think the problem is illustrated in the quote above, you go aggressively against him but mellow it down a bit later, making your point far more understandable.
 
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