Thought this might go down nicely here.
Drunk rape justified?
- 主题发起人 Seff
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Hmm, maybe your last post got mixed up with the **** Falkner92 came up with.Weaver 说:
Yeah yeah. It's not only that. This is something that is told girls, growing up, so many times. Teachers, social workers, youth workers, the police officer that visits high schools, the police officer that visits university, newspapers, TV-talk shows, blogs on the internet - it's a neverending stream that you, as a male, probably are not aware of at all. It's extremely rare to see the opposite (though it does happens), authorities advising young men that taking advantage of drunk or passed out girls is an actual rape.Weaver 说:
I think that's an interesting phenomenon.Jhessail 说:
In my country it isn't a big deal. We don't have social workers and media pestering kids about rape and overall it's discussed no more than any other crime.
But it does seem to be a disproportionately bigger issue in the West. Why is it different there? I think to a certain extent it was triggered by feminists, who worked hard to raise awareness toward rape and other gender flavoured abuse. I think many people today actually believe those inane stats that one in three girls gets raped and 95% of rapists tend to get away with it. Now, if I firmly believed those stats to be true and I had, say, two daughters, I'd go ****ing insane. So there you have it.
Yeah, I got it.
Mind you, I'm not talking about "responsibility" here. Because it can and will be distorted and I'll be presented as someone who puts the blame on the victim, which was never my intention, of course.
I've seen feminists say stuff like, "Instead of teaching my daughter how to avoid rape, why don't you teach your sons not to do it!" but that seems rather childish to me. To draw a parallel...which is more effective; telling your kids to avoid bad neighborhoods after dark, or lecturing criminals in those neighborhoods about the evils of mugging, rape, murder, and assault?Jhessail 说:
When some worthless scumbags record themselves gang raping a girl who's passed out, is it only because they were never told that rape is wrong? Would those rapists have experienced a eureka-moment had they received a, "sex with passed out girls is a morally wrong + criminal act" email from mom before going to the party? An overall better parenting job when kids are young would probably prevent a lot of them from becoming criminals (including but not limited to rapists), but the overwhelming majority of rapists do in fact know that what they're doing is wrong at the time that they're doing it. Telling them that fact once they're teenagers or adults isn't likely to do anything, while telling your daughters to not get drunk at a party (and not to leave their drink unattended, no matter what it is) may very well be sound advice, even if it makes some people get indignant. And once again, it's not placing blame on those daughters should they ignore the advice; a criminal act is the fault of the person(s) who commits it, not their victim(s).
Wheem 说:
The 'teaching' of little boys not to grow up and rape vulnerable females (or males) doesn't have to be moralizing. It could instead recognize that, there is perhaps some androgenic-mediated vulnerability to misbehave in such ways, while simultaneously expressing both an intolerance and alienation for such behavior.
Most parents probably don't even bother to teach their pre-teen children about sex and sexuality in any edifying, consistent, truthful way, much less to teach their sons that "Look pal, you get yourself in trouble for raping a drunk female, and you are no longer my son, okay? I hope they lock you up and throw away the key."
Federico
Banned
wait, I'm not saying that!Seff 说:
I try to explain, but it's not easy because English is not my language, sorry.
I mean, if you take drugs don't complain about what happens to you.
You can smoke a joint on your bed, while listening some music with your girl, no one will hurts you, unless you are not with your girl
or you can go drunk at a party, with every **** in the room aim at you, and then wake up after a gang bang
it's your choice
wake up, we're on planet Earth, we're some kind of shouting apes who want to **** everything (both male and female) so don't be shocked if someone try to **** you
that doesn't means I usually rape drunk girls, or that I see it as a good thing, but I feel much more sad for victims of normal rape, they use to remember all facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate like this one for example
Federico 说:
Federico 说:
I'm hoping that doesn't mean what I think it means.
Au contraire. Just because you're not sober doesn't mean any of the blame for an eventual rape befalls you. The person raping you is responsible, 100%.Federico 说:
Unless you wear a sign around you neck that says "If I pass out you can **** me" and sign it, it's NOT your choice.Federico 说:You can smoke a joint on your bed, while listening some music with your girl, no one will hurts you, unless you are not with your girl
or you can go drunk at a party, with every **** in the room aim at you, and then wake up after a gang bang
it's your choice
Nobody's shocked that it happens or that most people are horny and try their luck when they're drunk, advisable or not. But much like drunk driving, being drunk doesn't mean you're not responsible for the actions you take. The actions OTHERS take AGAINST you are still very much THEIR responsibility, not yours - even if you're ****-faced drunk. Otherwise we get this nasty loophole where it's okay to have sex with overly drunk girls because they're "asking for it", which is just dumb.Federico 说:
Exactly. Obviously telling your 17-year old son five minutes before he's going to a party, that ****ing a passed out girl is rape, is not very effective. But if you talk with your kids, honestly and thoroughly, about such facts of life, from an early point, it's a message that stays with them. Better parenting always helps. When I've been in the USA, it's always mindboggling how many young Americans (that I've come across) are clueless about sex and how older people, parents, that I've lunched with or have had dinner with and the occasion to talk about such things comes up, get really uneasy and quickly change the topic. Case in point: explaining the sauna culture of Finland always earns me both amused and shocked stares. Amused because they think I'm pulling their leg, shocked that people of both sexes are naked together!Anthropoid 说:
Well, you could've fooled me. Which you actually did. Or I tragically misunderstood you at some point.Weaver 说:
What the **** are you on about, crazy person?Federico 说:or you can go drunk at a party, with every **** in the room aim at you, and then wake up after a gang bang
it's your choice
wake up, we're on planet Earth, we're some kind of shouting apes who want to **** everything (both male and female) so don't be shocked if someone try to **** you
that doesn't means I usually rape drunk girls, or that I see it as a good thing, but I feel much more sad for victims of normal rape, they use to remember all facts
You don't "usually" rape drunk girls? What country and city do you live in? I'll notify the local newspaper and police department.NEWSFLASH, mother****er: I've gone to a campus party where I only knew less than 10% of the party-people. I was drunk and got even drunker. Don't remember the last two hours. Woke up in my own bed, wearing my clothes from the night before. Whoa, none of those British, German, Spanish, Dutch or Finnish guys (it was like 6 girls to maybe 20 guys) decided to rape me even though I was drunk as a skunk. That's how it ALWAYS should be. Don't shift blame from the rapist on the victim or I'll call you even worse names. Like rape apologist. Google that.
And until "should" becomes "will," there must be due warning given out. It doesn't shift blame to the victim if you're trying to prevent a victimization in the first place. You need to keep your wits about you in public, especially at seedy places. For example, I have a cousin who had to go to the ER and nearly died because he drank too much of something that was most likely spiked with stuff other than alcohol. Likewise, a family fried needed wires in his jaw after being punched by a drunken lout in a public bar for saying a passing word to someone. There are messed up people out there, and keeping your head about you is the best thing you can do to prevent victimization. No one is telling you not to drink (not even the mother in that article)--people are saying to not get utterly ****faced--because this isn't a perfect world.Jhessail 说:
No, telling boys it's wrong to rape WILL stop a lot of rapes. Drunken hormonal teenagers aren't known for their empathy and awareness. There are just as many it won't stop, but there are many it would.Wheem 说:
However, the majority of rapes come not from lack of education, but from psychological damage on the part of the male. In my opinion most of the type of damage that leads to rape comes in the form of societally repressed male sexuality, or as I like to call it "creep-shaming". Male sexuality is simultaneously held up as a sign of manhood on a societal level, and derided as being disgusting on a personal level. A sex symbol walks up to a woman in a bar scene and says "Hey, babe." and it's all swoons and "now THAT's a real man!" Regular joe walks up to a woman in a bar and says "Hey, babe." and it's "What a creep", "Who does he think he is?", and bouncers tossing your ass to the curb because 1 hot woman in the bar is worth more than 20 men actually buying drinks.
This creates a double standard where men have to be hyper-sexual to be considered "manly", but have to be completely asexual at all times. This creates a lot of shame and self-disgust on the part of the man and forces him to bury and deny his sexuality.
If you want to focus on the male half of the male-against-female rape dynamic, then you need to make a concerted effort to accept and welcome HEALTHY male sexuality in society. Otherwise, it just sounds like blaming all men for the actions of specific people, which is just as stupid as blaming the victim for the actions of the attacker.
It's like "Pro-Life" people who think they can stop abortion with laws, or that they can save lives by killing people. What would stop abortion would be a guaranteed minimum income for single-parent mothers so that they NEVER had to worry about their child growing up in poverty.
I see two different points are being made here:
1)It is NOT OK to rape people when they are drunk, to which I hope everyone here will agree.
2)You can not get drunk out of your face and expect nothing to happen to you, and that taking such a chance with your own safety is very stupid as you would not even do that with your personal possessions (the stolen property left unattended scenario)
1)It is NOT OK to rape people when they are drunk, to which I hope everyone here will agree.
2)You can not get drunk out of your face and expect nothing to happen to you, and that taking such a chance with your own safety is very stupid as you would not even do that with your personal possessions (the stolen property left unattended scenario)
Well, it's an advice. The best thing about an advice is that you can take it or leave it.Jhessail 说:
There's a big difference between people giving you sound advice (which actually shows that they care) and people telling you post factum that it was all your fault (which is of course a truly despicable behaviour).
