Drunk rape justified?

[Argeus the Paladin]

What do you guys think about what happened in Steubenville? Link.

Was this not the case where the football team's big wigs deliberately downplayed their boys' role because they needed them for the school's sporting award or something?

 

[Bulle]

Probably, the football coach was a character witness for the boys and the boys were like the biggest stars in the team, without them the team sort of sucked.

 

[Jhessail]

If both male and female have equally high BAC's, it's pretty damn sexist to pin it all on the guy.

Unless my life experiences, the experiences of all my friends, and the statistics are wrong, the guy initiates it 9 times out of 10. Drunk girls do fall on drunk guys lap but far more often it's the drunk guy who grabs the drunk girl. So if the end result is that sex has happened, both claim they don't remember it, it's not "damn sexist" to pin it on the guy.

I can't say one way or another whether or not gay pride parades directly effected public opinion in the non-gay community.

Naturally it's a difficult subject, because the whole campaign for equal rights has been going on for many years and still is. I do agree that any public appearance by minorities gets certain elements of the majority worked up - just look what happened at the first gay pride in Moscow - but if legislation follows, they do work and they do influence the non-gay community as well. Because there is no singular non-gay community, it's just all the communities that aren't predominantly gay.

How many fundamentalist Christians do you think joined in the revelries?

Probably none. But **** them. They are a lost cause anyway. It's their children who we should focus, some can be saved. More importantly, how many regular people observed such a march and came away with the realization that the gays and lesbians look like normal people?

Now I do like that you are calmly trying to expand your initial position and defend it but you haven't really convinced me at all, because all you are relying on is the old dividing lines and the typical worry of alienating some extremists. They do not matter. Again, look what just happened in India. Rape culture does exist and awareness campaigns are important in shaping public opinion and driving home the point that sexual abuse is wrong.

Then again, keep in mind that my upbringing has always valued "coping" over "combating", for good or ill. Take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

That's the problem with you rice-eaters! 

I'm not saying it's a quick process or that a small minority of radicals can get it done. The radicals need to become moderates and a majority. Hell, I had an openly gay CO in the Army for few weeks when I was loaned to another unit - his car had the rainbow sticker and everything - and he didn't get any **** for it even in the locker room. That would have been impossible in the 90's, not to mention the 80's. Progress does happen. Hopefully one day, the very idea that "she was asking for it" is so ludicrous that people just snort when they hear that in the early 21st century, such lame excuses were invoked.

 

[Argeus the Paladin]

Funny, I thought I heard about something like this years ago back when I was a troper. Either it's deja vu, or this is not the first time something like this happened. If the latter, I think Imma gonna post in the 'what reduces your faith in humanity today' thread now.

Then again, keep in mind that my upbringing has always valued "coping" over "combating", for good or ill. Take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

That's the problem with you rice-eaters! 

I'm not saying it's a quick process or that a small minority of radicals can get it done. The radicals need to become moderates and a majority. Hell, I had an openly gay CO in the Army for few weeks when I was loaned to another unit - his car had the rainbow sticker and everything - and he didn't get any **** for it even in the locker room. That would have been impossible in the 90's, not to mention the 80's. Progress does happen. Hopefully one day, the very idea that "she was asking for it" is so ludicrous that people just snort when they hear that in the early 21st century, such lame excuses were invoked.

But what if said CO had lived in the 70s? 80s? Would it have been better for him to conceal his true sexual identity than risk whatever might come from social stigma and whatnot?

That's my point. While changes and progress do happen, they happen slowly enough that people born while changes has not been in place has to find other means to defend themselves and theirs. Hence 'coping'. Makes even more sense for the sort of changes and progress that you're not very likely to see happening in your lifetime.

Now, back to the topic: Rape culture is a thing, and I would give it... 20-30 years, give or take half a dozen or so, to become a thing of the 'neanderthal past', and that's me being fairly optimistic about the Western world these days (never mind the rest of humanity, just for the sake of the argument). In the meantime, women still have to live, work, hang out with friends, date and generally enjoy their lives. In which case, like I said, it would be more prudent for each to take their own measures to avoid bad things happening to them in the first place than trying to tout a right - however rightful - whose social infrastructure has not been in place yet.

A close analogy is

隐藏: Again, tourists keep out. Nothing to see here

Me and the streets near where I (used to) live. I've been mugged once in broad daylight, even though that's everyone's road and I have every right to take a stroll and see where this road or that road leads to. Was I wronged? Yes. Was it wrong to blame me "asking for it" by exploring a less traveled road? Yes. But after that happened, would it be wise for me to take precaution to keep that from ever happening again, because I know damn well it would take ages before the police could do anything halfway useful? Also yes.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Unless my life experiences, the experiences of all my friends, and the statistics are wrong, the guy initiates it 9 times out of 10. Drunk girls do fall on drunk guys lap but far more often it's the drunk guy who grabs the drunk girl. So if the end result is that sex has happened, both claim they don't remember it, it's not "damn sexist" to pin it on the guy.

Yes it is.

"Well odds are that 9 of them are guilty, so let's just throw all 10 in prison."

 

[Mad Vader]

It seems there is a really thin line between "I made a mistake last night" and "I was raped last night because I was drunk and couldn't think clearly to refuse sex that I regretted in the morning".
This is yet another opportunity for people to avoid responsibility for their decisions.

 

[Jhessail]

But what if said CO had lived in the 70s? 80s? Would it have been better for him to conceal his true sexual identity than risk whatever might come from social stigma and whatnot?

Unless some people risk the stigma and other people stand up for them, there will never be change.

In the meantime, women still have to live, work, hang out with friends, date and generally enjoy their lives. In which case, like I said, it would be more prudent for each to take their own measures to avoid bad things happening to them in the first place than trying to tout a right - however rightful - whose social infrastructure has not been in place yet.

Indeed - but it should be "common sense" thing, ie don't party alone, don't accept rides from strangers, don't get too drunk. It shouldn't be obnoxious things (that might not look obnoxious to a male) like don't dress in a certain way, don't go out after dark, don't be sexually active. The former is common sense, the latter is restricting freedom of possible victims.

Yes it is.

"Well odds are that 9 of them are guilty, so let's just throw all 10 in prison."

Well what's your solution then? There's physical evidence that intercourse has happened, the woman says she didn't give consent since she can't remember it, the man says she gave consent or that as far as he can remember, she did. Toss it out of the court? You just gave free pass to all sleazeball date-rape druggists and the assholes who purposefully try to get women too drunk.

EDIT: wanted to add this because **** like this still happens:

 

[pentagathus]

Yes it is.

"Well odds are that 9 of them are guilty, so let's just throw all 10 in prison."

Well what's your solution then? There's physical evidence that intercourse has happened, the woman says she didn't give consent since she can't remember it, the man says she gave consent or that as far as he can remember, she did. Toss it out of the court? You just gave free pass to all sleazeball date-rape druggists and the assholes who purposefully try to get women too drunk.

In that case there isn't any evidence that she was raped or even that she didn't initiate it so there isn't any solution.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

There is only one solution to the problem of rape.





Give everybody guns. If everybody has a gun, nobody will ever be raped again.

I'll take that Nobel Prize now...

 

[Ambalon]

隐藏

Oh wow. 

 

[Cutpurse3]

Guy on the right (left from her POV)

 

[Sir Saladin]

隐藏

Oh wow. 

It looks like she still hasn't learned her lesson. Her hair and face are uncovered and I can see some skin. She's just asking for a severe beating again. Bee keeper suits and guns are the answer so make her carry a revolver at least if she insists on dressing like that.

Disclaimer: I don't really mean what I wrote here, I was being absurd on purpose.

 

[Tibertus]

Yes it is.

"Well odds are that 9 of them are guilty, so let's just throw all 10 in prison."

Well what's your solution then? There's physical evidence that intercourse has happened, the woman says she didn't give consent since she can't remember it, the man says she gave consent or that as far as he can remember, she did. Toss it out of the court? You just gave free pass to all sleazeball date-rape druggists and the assholes who purposefully try to get women too drunk.

EDIT: wanted to add this because **** like this still happens:

You also said that 9 out of ten times the guy initiates it. However, that's a social thing where women expect to have the guy make the first move. Just because a guy makes the first move, doesn't mean a single damn thing. Further, the social ostracizing, loss of work opportunity and complete Invasion of ones privacy that comes after a sexual crime accusation, even when found not guilty is so debilitating for a man, I'd never wish that on anyone that's not guilty. It's even worse in prison, what other inmates do to people accused of sexual crimes. Really, in my own opinion I'd rather give a few sleazeballs the benefit of the doubt than wrongly accuse someone who is innocent and sentence to such a horrible punishment.

 

[Ambalon]

No! Bad Tibertus! The suffering of a single woman has to be payed with the suffering of no less than seven men!

 

[Tibertus]

Oh, I forgot.

 

[K-64]

No! Bad Tibertus! The suffering of a single woman has to be payed with the suffering of no less than seven men!

So, what you're saying is that if I manage to somehow find myself in a poly-amorous relationship, then I spread even more torment just by being me? Damn, feminazi-ism is sounding quite a bit more appealing now

 

[Paula]

[the social ostracizing, loss of work opportunity and complete Invasion of ones privacy that comes after a sexual crime accusation, even when found not guilty is so debilitating for a man, I'd never wish that on anyone that's not guilty.

that situation could be avoided if people didn't have sex with people whose ability to consent is questionable, I think.

 

[Tibertus]

So the innocent will be safe from false accusations as soon as the criminals stop committing crimes. Awesome.

 

[Seff]

Is it just me, or is that sentence horribly broken?

 

[pentagathus]

Nah it seems weird to me too.