Drunk rape justified?

[Swadius 2.0]

Continued from the Dating Thread, where it didn't belong.

By the way, ponder: The argument is complete bogus - akin to saying that when you drive 100 km/h in an 80 km/h zone, it's your own fault that some ******* in oncoming traffic chooses to swerve into your lane and hit you nose to nose. Doesn't make sense. Your minor lapse of judgment does not justify the much larger ****-up of the other person.

In most cases, I find the insurance company blames both of these people on different levels for the car crash. The dude for driving in the on-coming lane mostly, and the person who was speeding and thus didn't leave himself enough time to get out of the way, or because he was speeding, made the car crash much more deadly than if he wasn't.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

The traditional legal definition is not sex without consent, but sex by use of force or under threat of force. Big difference, huuuge.

Feeling a bit dumb here - could you explain the difference? I don't understand how something can happen without consent or force. Accidentally?

 

[Mage246]

I looked down and we were both surprised to find that my penis had gone inside of her! That lovable scamp. We all had a good laugh about it afterwards.

 

[Devercia]

I find the opinion that an inebriated person is not personally responsible for their own actions rather odd. Note: I said "their own actions." Accusations resting on mitigation of consent given while inebriated still seems within the responsibility of the individual giving or withholding consent in the same way that drunkenness does not mitigate illegal actions committed under the influence of alcohol. Of course, having things done to you while you are on the fringe of consciousness is something else entirely.

There actually is, you know. The culture where people tend to look at the victim and go "oh, she asked for it". I don't exactly know why this is so, but maybe it's a vary human psychological reaction in the face of any horrible thing to reassure themselves that would not happen to them because they aren't such a slut/careless idiot/etc.

There may be something to this, but personally, I think it is viewed in the same way extreme sporters getting injured, and then suing whomever. The most common response I hear to "she asked for it." is about how people should have the ability to be slutty or vulnerable without incurring the lustful assaults (or even advances) of others, which is rightly so, but a deflection of the point. I see slutwalks, even demands for anti-rape education (includeing self defense) to be changed from prevention for women into manditory premption for men. Its stupid, if it is even effective at all, because it is not only the furthest thing from pragmatic, its assumes that rapists and rape-defenders do not intellectually understand ethics, which barring sociopaths, is not the case.

Risky behavior will incure bad results, thats why being slutty is risky. The misunderstanding here is that speakers on the issue are stuck in the sociological bucket. Rape is viewed as a social, and not also, perhaps mostly a psychological or biological phenomenon. Women have ~6% as much testosterone, the source of sexual behavior, and its highly cyclical. Testosterone is much more stable at high levels in men, but even among individuals it is highly variable. Meaning, the likely pool of victims and advocates have little clue of the nature of the beast they are dealing with and don't understand the risks.

Regardless of morality, law and social adaptations, it's playing with fire. There is a fool born every day and some people really are jerks.

@Papa, There are many scenarios where a person would be considered beyond the ability to give consent, but none the less willing and not requiring of force, such as minors, animals, and people in compromised states of mind.

 

[bgfan]

If both parties are drunk, nobody is responsible. If only one party is drunk, the sober is responsible. Seems pretty damn simple to me. Although I find myself agreeing more with Devercia's post.

 

[Ule]

as has been said if the girl is too drunk to comprehend the situation, then the guy is taking advantage wether of not hes in the same state or sober. that however wouldnt classify as rape. but then diminished responasbilty comes into play, if the perp is also under the influance. reletionship status with each other also gets looked at here. however if the guy is sober then your looking at possible rape or sexual assualt charges.

however if the girl is unconcious and some one proceeds to have his way with her, then that does classify as rape, or at the very least sexual assult.(depending on the court and or local laws)

also if the girl is drunk and is saying no and you do it anyway, thats rape. and if force is used no matter the state of the girl then that too is rape.

alot of the time its the first situtation that is thought about and is often brought up as the "drunk rape". it can also be said its used by some people just to "get back" at others, which is sadly why alot of rape cases get dropped or not investigated properly.

but basicaly if the girl is too drunk to stand up, keep your lil man zipped up and just put the girl to bed or take her home. yes you miss out on a wet winky but id rather have that than have to deal with all **** that comes with an accuastion of rape. what is rape and what isnt is a huge cluster **** of laws and what people say or do plus social and personal morality.

 

[Mad Vader]

Let's just remember that regular, consensual drunken sex can be a lot of fun. You shouldn't give up on it if you are not a jerk.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Risky behavior will incure bad results, thats why being slutty is risky.

And who defines what is slutty behaviour? Because I'm willing to bet that devout christians and muslims would lable behaviour slutty, which you and I would find socially acceptable and quite normal. Is wearing little or no clothing slutty? What about naturalists and nudists? They are unashamed to show their bodies, yet are able to distinguish between nudity and sex.

Or is 'slutty' a girl who goes out wearing a miniskirt, short top, and makeup? How much does she have to drink before she crosses over the line between normal girl enjoying a night out (let's say, to celebrate passing her college exams) to slut?

Or are we specifically naing girls sluts if they have a lot of casual sex, even if they're always sober and clean? Or are we specifically relegating the term to use on prostitutes?

I think it only fair that if such labels are going to be used by men the world over, the term 'slut' should be defined by all of them and agreed upon so that it's less ambiguous, and can even be used in a court of law.

I was kidding about the very last part.

 

[Argeus the Paladin]

Let's just remember that regular, consensual drunken sex can be a lot of fun. You shouldn't give up on it if you are not a jerk.

I can name at least one Chinese emperor for whom this ended badly. As in death.

 

[Haresus]

I am sure his enemies had a lot of fun.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Ugh, drunk sex is horrible, but I completely understand how some guys can only pick up chicks whilst drunk. If that's MadVader's MO I'm not going to try and talk him out of it, but I dislike sex if I've had more than one or two drinks.

 

[Mad Vader]

but I dislike sex if I've had more than one or two drunks.

I agree, it's tiring to get through several drunks in one night.

 

[Haresus]

Ugh, drunk sex is horrible, but I completely understand how some guys can only pick up chicks whilst drunk. If that's MadVader's MO I'm not going to try and talk him out of it, but I dislike sex if I've had more than one or two drunks.

Llandy taking down those drunks, one after another.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

but I dislike sex if I've had more than one or two drunks.

I agree, it's tiring to get through several drunks in one night.

I don't know what you're talking about, I'm sure.  <_<  >_>

Ugh, drunk sex is horrible, but I completely understand how some guys can only pick up chicks whilst drunk. If that's MadVader's MO I'm not going to try and talk him out of it, but I dislike sex if I've had more than one or two drunks.

Llandy taking down those drunks, one after another.

They make me so angry!

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Well...angry sex is pretty fun, so whatever floats your metaphorical boat, British Overlord.

 

[Tibertus]

Risky behavior will incure bad results, thats why being slutty is risky.

And who defines what is slutty behaviour? Because I'm willing to bet that devout christians and muslims would lable behaviour slutty, which you and I would find socially acceptable and quite normal. Is wearing little or no clothing slutty? What about naturalists and nudists? They are unashamed to show their bodies, yet are able to distinguish between nudity and sex.

Or is 'slutty' a girl who goes out wearing a miniskirt, short top, and makeup? How much does she have to drink before she crosses over the line between normal girl enjoying a night out (let's say, to celebrate passing her college exams) to slut?

Or are we specifically naing girls sluts if they have a lot of casual sex, even if they're always sober and clean? Or are we specifically relegating the term to use on prostitutes?

I think it only fair that if such labels are going to be used by men the world over, the term 'slut' should be defined by all of them and agreed upon so that it's less ambiguous, and can even be used in a court of law.

I was kidding about the very last part.

I think being slutty is more about behavior given circumstances and less about clothing: girl grinding on you in a bar kind of slutty, girl grinding on you at a tire shop really slutty, girl grinding on you at church, super slutty.

Really, to deny that there's actions girls take to get a sexual response out of guys is pretty naive. And then they get all offended when you ask if they want to go home with you. "**** no boy, I just wanted to rub my ass and ***** on your ****, there's nothing sexual about that."

I'm sure that wasn't your point though...

 

[pentagathus]

I do dislike the term slut. Is this whole thread supposed to be a discussion on whether or not it should be considered rape if a sober person has sex with a consenting drunk person or whether or not its alright to rape drunk people? The latter is obviously utterly retarded, the former I would say no to (unless the sober person got the drunk person drunk in order to have their wicked way, in which case its might be rape perhaps, depending on whether the drunk knew they what they were drinking and how drunk they were.)

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Really, to deny that there's actions girls take to get a sexual response out of guys is pretty naive. And then they get all offended when you ask if they want to go home with you. "**** no boy, I just wanted to rub my ass and ***** on your ****, there's nothing sexual about that."

I'm sure that wasn't your point though...

Indeed. I would actually class such behaviour as some sort of sexual assault, because if a guy started rubbing himself against a woman it would certainly be viewed as a form of sexual assault. It's inappropriate behaviour no matter which way it goes.

 

[pentagathus]

You mean I've been sexually assaulted by multitudes of cats? 

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

And their little dogs, too!