Don't feel pressured Taleworlds

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Rhaeyl said:
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Wait...if Callum is Darth Vader isn't releasing unpolished game supposed to be dark side?
 
Orion said:
You sassed him, and now you're sassing me. Is this what you want to do?

I did sass in my questioning of his evidence, but I wouldn't say I taunted. Impudence and cheekiness as sass is described is a useful tool to bring some levity to this ultra serious topic. I like the word sass. It's like salsa. 
 
Imanis said:
I absolutely loathe how everyone simply ignores the fact that TW's principal purpose in extending the development timeline of BL is because they have a generous benefactor that is putting a lot of money into development and they are scared that once they finish the product, that source of funding will get cut off.

Why do you think they are taking the longest time to implement all of these "features" (many of which already existed in Warband and its mods).

There is a game on Steam called "Kingdoms" that has 1 guy developing it (and it is ambitious) and it is on a faster timeline.

It is ridiculous that so many people here (I know, mainly TW fanboys) are being ignoramuses.

well i have kingdoms, bought it about the time it came out on steam early access. there wasn't much there at the time and it had been in development for about 2 years. bannerlord has been in development longer, but also has more to show for it. i bought mount and blade before release back in the day as well, and that game had an open beta. that beta was a real beta just like kingdoms. it is possible that bannerlord will use the same engine, just modified quite a bit, though i doubt it. it probably needed to be built from scratch, and so the development is going at a pace i'd expect given the scope. kingdoms is moving at about the pace i'd expect given its scope.

i've been around long enough to see a lot of games get produced, and i've done my own coding and modding as well. most games today (and this is true for mount and blade, though they used a more bare bones than most others) buy engines to get the game in a workable state from the get go, then modify the hell out of it. given the early dev diaries i think they may have started from scratch and created their own engine. this takes more time, and keep in mind that they didn't start bannerlord immediately on the release of warband.

if they really wanted to squash rumors they could have gone with an early open beta release like what they did with the original game. back then i had more time and i played that game a lot, well before release and loved it despite not having much in it. one thing that we could see is how the game worked, and many people worked on modding it before the module system even came out. by the official release there were a ton of mods and the community had helped to polish and streamline the game quite a bit, and had a healthy amount of mods for it ready to go. of course this doesn't always happen with such releases so i can see them holding off, but the trade off is all the speculation taken as fact, and that just doesn't go away unless you squash it constantly which means tasking a dev to do just that, a bit of a waste in my opinion as such things will die after release anyway (though it may impact the release).
 
CaptainLee said:
Orion said:
You sassed him, and now you're sassing me. Is this what you want to do?

I did sass in my questioning of his evidence, but I wouldn't say I taunted. Impudence and cheekiness as sass is described is a useful tool to bring some levity to this ultra serious topic. I like the word sass. It's like salsa.

I didn't take offense to it. If someone thinks my claims are ridiculous, I have no issue with them ridiculing me.

I'm secure...so why would it bother me? If free speech is bypassed in the name of keeping things arbitrarily "civil", then count me out of that discourse.

BIGGER Kentucky James XXL said:
Imanis said:
I absolutely loathe how everyone simply ignores the fact that TW's principal purpose in extending the development timeline of BL is because they have a generous benefactor that is putting a lot of money into development and they are scared that once they finish the product, that source of funding will get cut off.

Where's your evidence for this? Benefactors aren't stupid and no investor is going to fund a company indefinitely just to finish a single project. Bannerlord is probably getting at least some of its funding from the Turkish government, and if it's anything like other funded projects in other countries, the investor will want some evidence of progress. If taleworlds was deliberately taking longer than necessary on their game, they'd be found out.

Bannerlord is (most likely) taking a long time because:
1. This is the biggest game ever produced in turkey. Many of the developers on bannerlord are amateurs and it shows.
2. Warband took a long time, and this game is much more ambitious. Armagan has essentially just made one game so far.

No source. First-hand knowledge. Can't tell you outright, but here is a riddle that will give you a clue:

If you have the will and spare the time, the answer's not in nickels, but a dime.

Orion said:
You sassed him, and now you're sassing me. Is this what you want to do?

My word! You all are getting more and more dictatorial as time goes on.

Why don't you just cut the Kim-Jong Dos act and let us have our convo in peace. Nobody is harming anyone...except for maybe TW's and affiliates's pride.
 
You've been warned for triple-posting before, so one has to wonder what your intention was when you decided to do it again while comparing a moderator to a brutal dictator. Ask and you shall receive, I suppose.
 
I, for one, welcome our new brutal dictator Orion.

As for the fundings, I know they receive some sort of fundings from the Turkish government (at least that is what everyone keeps telling me, so actually I do not know). However, wouldn't Taleworlds also make a boatload of money from releasing and selling the game?

And as someone mentioned before, (I can not find the post) the people working at Taleworlds are mostly beginners. Which can be a very good thing, while probably not as skilled as the veterans of their field, they can have a more open mind, bigger ambition and are not stuck in their ways(doing stuff how they are always doing it and never different).
 
Blead said:
And as someone mentioned before, (I can not find the post) the people working at Taleworlds are mostly beginners. Which can be a very good thing, while probably not as skilled as the veterans of their field, they can have a more open mind, bigger ambition and are not stuck in their ways(doing stuff how they are always doing it and never different).
This conclusion can be argued both ways, though. Because they are an amateur studio, they don't have as much experience with game development as big studios do. This means there may be superior techniques & technologies they are simply unaware of.
 
Definitely, there are some big disadvantages when you work on a project for the first time. However, if they make their own engine from scratch then it means they are the most knowledgeable on the engine. it sort of evens the playing field.

Luckily not all of them are new guys, Armagan and his wife have been programmers for years and they will probably have more experienced people in their team as well.
 
Blead said:
And as someone mentioned before, (I can not find the post) the people working at Taleworlds are mostly beginners. Which can be a very good thing, while probably not as skilled as the veterans of their field, they can have a more open mind, bigger ambition and are not stuck in their ways(doing stuff how they are always doing it and never different).

Skills don't work this way, especially not 3D art and coding. It's mostly the people who've been doing something for ages who are the best able to break the rules in a meaningful way. The majority of the most inventive solutions in game development history come from people who've been making games for years. Meanwhile hiring a team of amateurs is always a bad idea and is responsible for Mass Effect Andromeda, No Man's Sky and Fallout 76. Bethesda is most notable as it's a company comprised almost entirely of borderline unqualified developers, and it shows.
 
BIGGER Kentucky James XXL said:
Blead said:
And as someone mentioned before, (I can not find the post) the people working at Taleworlds are mostly beginners. Which can be a very good thing, while probably not as skilled as the veterans of their field, they can have a more open mind, bigger ambition and are not stuck in their ways(doing stuff how they are always doing it and never different).

Skills don't work this way, especially not 3D art and coding. It's mostly the people who've been doing something for ages who are the best able to break the rules in a meaningful way. The majority of the most inventive solutions in game development history come from people who've been making games for years. Meanwhile hiring a team of amateurs is always a bad idea and is responsible for Mass Effect Andromeda, No Man's Sky and Fallout 76. Bethesda is most notable as it's a company comprised almost entirely of borderline unqualified developers, and it shows.
yeah, this is why i am fine with it taking so long. i have to train up new people all the time. my bosses toss me an entire team of newbies and expect me to train them with years of knowledge while doing the job in a matter of days. training them means getting everything going, and having them a part of that process which slows everything down by at least 4 times. so by the time we get things up and running the others are antsy to get things going, and expect that the team knows how to run everything pretty good. at this point though we are just moving on to the part of learning how to operate the stuff. then later the team gets swapped out with a bunch of new newbies and everyone expects them to have learned what the other guys where taught instead of starting from scratch. it becomes a balancing act in how much you have them do. you want them to do stuff, as not only can you only do so much on your own, but they have to learn. on the other hand the more they do instead of you the slower things go and the less able you are in keeping the department in step with everyone else.
 
jamoecw said:
you want them to do stuff, as not only can you only do so much on your own, but they have to learn. on the other hand the more they do instead of you the slower things go and the less able you are in keeping the department in step with everyone else.

The funny part is, your bosses probably expect that the extra trainees they dump on you are helping you get the job done faster.  In reality, you end up spending (or wasting, for the ones that don't learn) half of your time on the project just teaching them the basics before they can even begin to contribute anything back.  That's when the higher-ups pull them off the job and put them somewhere else, leaving you with a fresh team of trainees to slow you down.

I recall one employee on summer break from high school who started where I worked.  After several weeks of trying in vain to teach him the absolute basics of handling tools, he was put more-or-less on his own by my superiors, and I had to inspect and then fix everything he did....literally EVERYTHING.  I spent more time repairing his mistakes than he spent making them, which essentially ground my own work to a near-halt.  The infuriating part was that almost every mistake was different: rather than making the same mistake in 16 places, he would make 14 or 15 completely different mistakes.  Four identical #4-40 x 1/4" Philips head screws in a chassis, and he would use 3 different types, one of them slotted and the others of different lengths.  A kepnut is a hex-shaped nut with a built-in lock-washer, and despite pointing out the purpose and function of the lock-washer several times, he still managed to get the lock-washer face-up in just about 50% of the cases.  Last I heard, he's now in software development.
 
Knez said:
Unlike for the duke nukem, we have a pretty clear insight what's going on, and how does it look like. Same formula and base as warband, more in depth with better graphic and animations. Like when they made warband from mount and blade except the difference is even larger. Huge plus is that this game does not require any sort of story, plain insights of stuff here and there, how this work, how that works, something like tutorial, is enough. Thing that worries me is the mutiplayer, but singleplayer will be enjoyable. Some people expect way too much out of it, they expect it to be better crusader kings 2 than crusader kings 2 is. In that manner, they will be disappointed, that i guarantee. Their thirst can not be satisfied. Those who do not, those who want a worthy successor of mount and blade warband, will get it. If they don't, the company will not get the second chance. It's a huge weight for this company, and this is the logical reason why they are not rushing it. The more time progresses, the more people overall expect from it. With good reason. But there is not much they can do, other than to release it in good state
We dont have  a clear insight whats's going on, if anything i remember in TW's devolopment stage it is "We are not sure to implement it, but we can", from outside it looks like TW is pretty indecisive and follows trial&error method. DNF was an idealistic team too, and guess what game was gonna be released soon in 2002 according to producer. TW had similar story in "being confident", "releasing in some way". Now in  Ali Erkin claimed he belives game will be out in 2019. From outside it is not PR but rather TW's expectations/ideals vs. reality. PR was a tool for it.
 
As someone pointed out earlier, comparisons to Duke Nukem Forever are not very meaningful. TaleWorlds hasn't run out of funding, switched ownership, or spent nearly as much time developing Bannerlord as was spent on DNF.
 
Honved said:
jamoecw said:
you want them to do stuff, as not only can you only do so much on your own, but they have to learn. on the other hand the more they do instead of you the slower things go and the less able you are in keeping the department in step with everyone else.

The funny part is, your bosses probably expect that the extra trainees they dump on you are helping you get the job done faster.  In reality, you end up spending (or wasting, for the ones that don't learn) half of your time on the project just teaching them the basics before they can even begin to contribute anything back.  That's when the higher-ups pull them off the job and put them somewhere else, leaving you with a fresh team of trainees to slow you down.

yep, exactly. i doubt we work in similar jobs, yet this seems to be something which is exactly the same. it is a rather consistent issue with bosses and bureaucracy, if if the bureaucracy involved stems from a different animal.

Honved said:
I recall one employee on summer break from high school who started where I worked.  After several weeks of trying in vain to teach him the absolute basics of handling tools, he was put more-or-less on his own by my superiors, and I had to inspect and then fix everything he did....literally EVERYTHING.  I spent more time repairing his mistakes than he spent making them, which essentially ground my own work to a near-halt.  The infuriating part was that almost every mistake was different: rather than making the same mistake in 16 places, he would make 14 or 15 completely different mistakes.  Four identical #4-40 x 1/4" Philips head screws in a chassis, and he would use 3 different types, one of them slotted and the others of different lengths.  A kepnut is a hex-shaped nut with a built-in lock-washer, and despite pointing out the purpose and function of the lock-washer several times, he still managed to get the lock-washer face-up in just about 50% of the cases.  Last I heard, he's now in software development.

there was a guy a few years back that was like that. he literally couldn't turn a wrench (one time he was tasked with unscrewing a bunch of stuff to disassemble something for transport, he took several minutes trying to unscrew the first bolt before he declared that he thinks the bolt was stripped due to it keeps spinning. turns out he hadn't adjusted the wrench to even grab the bolt head.) so he was promoted to a supervisor position to keep him at a desk. he could memorize all sorts of stuff and was a great resource for getting ready for an inspection, but the last thing you wanted from him was to do any work with his hands whatsoever. last i heard he went to college to get a computer science degree.
 
Orion said:
As someone pointed out earlier, comparisons to Duke Nukem Forever are not very meaningful. TaleWorlds hasn't run out of funding, switched ownership, or spent nearly as much time developing Bannerlord as was spent on DNF.
Well there are also similarities. I am not claiming bannerlord wont be out or be disaster, history is to take lessons no reason to avoid it. I am sure Tw would do devolepment differently with their current experience, so why not use experiences of similar studios.  And we are just chatting here, you also cant claim bannerlord was/is in dev hell we are just guessing here.
 
Orion said:
You've been warned for triple-posting before, so one has to wonder what your intention was when you decided to do it again while comparing a moderator to a brutal dictator. Ask and you shall receive, I suppose.

Your insecurity is so strongly reflected in your posts, its a wonder you're able to function at all. Gee whiz! You come off as extremely power-hungry when I have no ill intention whatsoever.

I don't care to not triple-post because I prefer to respond to each person individually in their own message. I don't know how to answer alternatively, anyways.

Look, I do not know what country you come from but, no matter your philosophical leanings, I believe in the absolute allowance of free speech. I have not said anything that would cross the boundary by which someone would leave that zone into inappropriate speech. You are the only one who continues to harass me on this point and all it does is interrupt productive and mind-stimulating conversation on tough (but universally constructive) themes.

I am not a troll, but I do like to have a little fun on these forums (is "fun" against the rules, or is that just your personal credo?). That fact that you continue to extrapolate an intention that does not exists in my writing (and twist the context of my conversation to satisfy your ego, etc.), is petulant and unbecoming of someone that is supposed to encourage good discussion.

Why don't you stop and let us have these discussions in peace?

Thanks.
 
This is a privately-owned forum.  There is no such thing as free speech or anything similar.  If you had bothered to read the forum rules, you would know this.  I will provide a link.  Follow it.
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,12250.msg208344.html#msg208344
 
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