Does the Bannerlord map make sense, when compared to that of Warband?

Do you mind that the map doesn't seem to line up with the map from Warband?

  • Why, yes I do!

  • Nah, not really.

  • I would like some fidelity, but ultimately I don't swing either way.

  • I only want to kill those raiders and drink from their skull.


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Cèsar de Quart

Master Knight
(Aside from the heated debate about Rhodoks somehow being inspired by Lithuanians in some way).

Hahah that did get out of hand.

I know that the town names don't actually matter that much and don't have any effect on gameplay, but I would love it if there was a bit more correspondence between location of cities in Warband and Bannerlord and maybe some more connections between castle and village names, like Tirby which is pretty close Warband's Tihr.

I found that just by changing a few names, the map makes sense. Look:

aYwCzzO.png


In white, the Bannerlord names. In red, the Warband names. In black, the changes that I think should be made in Bannerlord. I even added Zendar back!


Although it would be a feature probably only I would use, I'd love to see (probably a mod:er) implement a system where towns change name depending on the owner. For example if the Empire manages to retake Praven(d) it changes back to Baravenos. Don't expect to see it and most people would probably find it annoying and disorienting, but a man can dream!

You're gonna like this; in the game files there are etymological notes on why the cities are names the way they are. For instance:

SARGOT - "Sargot, from Calradic Sargythea, "Right Whale bay""
PRAVEND - "From Calradic Parzeonerea: 'City of He Who Rules By Heaven's Will'"
DUNGLANYS - "The Rock of Glanys"
VARCHEG - "Varcheg, far-flung on peninsula. Probably Sturgian version of Nordic 'Varjag,' sworn companion"

There's many other examples, as well as telltales breadcrumbs of which towns were added and then changed, or a certain Sunor which was later discarded and probably Seonon took its place. Other times the files mention cities by their Warband name, like Jelkala.

Have you seen this?

Yes, I'm sure you could also find the same similarities with Middle Earth.
 
Or it's just adding to the lore.
Not everything in the lore is future DLC content.
If you played warband than you already know that the Khergits/Kuzaits should be pushed by the eastern country to the west which means at some point an event has to occur and take one kuzait city and start conquering their lands. Thus Kuzaits/Khergits conquering the Eastern Empire and the Eastern part of the Warbands map. I hope they add events into the game thus adding an invasion.
 

Cèsar de Quart

Master Knight
If you played warband than you already know that the Khergits/Kuzaits should be pushed by the eastern country to the west which means at some point an event has to occur and take one kuzait city and start conquering their lands. I hope they add events into the game thus adding an invasion.

More tan the game already has? In all of my games, the Khuzaits are as unstoppable as the Battanians xD
 

Scarf Ace

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVCM&B
Hahah that did get out of hand.



I found that just by changing a few names, the map makes sense. Look:

aYwCzzO.png


In white, the Bannerlord names. In red, the Warband names. In black, the changes that I think should be made in Bannerlord. I even added Zendar back!




You're gonna like this; in the game files there are etymological notes on why the cities are names the way they are. For instance:

SARGOT - "Sargot, from Calradic Sargythea, "Right Whale bay""
PRAVEND - "From Calradic Parzeonerea: 'City of He Who Rules By Heaven's Will'"
DUNGLANYS - "The Rock of Glanys"
VARCHEG - "Varcheg, far-flung on peninsula. Probably Sturgian version of Nordic 'Varjag,' sworn companion"

There's many other examples, as well as telltales breadcrumbs of which towns were added and then changed, or a certain Sunor which was later discarded and probably Seonon took its place. Other times the files mention cities by their Warband name, like Jelkala.



Yes, I'm sure you could also find the same similarities with Middle Earth.

Honestly, looking at that map, it would make a similar amount of sense if Charas = Chelez and Ortysia = Shariz, although to me, the location for Shariz that would make the most sense to me is actually in the "Constantinople Spot" where the yellow and brown parts meet, especially if we don't assume that the interior sea suddenly vanished.
Lorewise you could explain it in that the Sarranid house founded a colony there, which became a vital trade hub for both the interior and western seas, and so gained the immense wealth and power that would let them eventually gain control of the northern coast of that sea.

Also, Velgar doesn't really suit the Bannerlord naming convention, it sounds too Nordic or so.
Here are some alternatives:
Velucar/Velucan/Valucar/Valucan would be the "plainest" ways to convert the name into Bannerlordish
Vel Luca or Val Luca (possibly with an n or r tagged on) would sort of follow the example of Uxkhal/Ocs Hall with the whole two words thing. As a bonus, it would make it sound more pseudo-Italian/Latin.
Potentially you could turn some syllables around, kinda like Jelkala/Jaculan, resulting in something like Veculan.
 

Ahtas

Recruit
Have you seen this?

zzol6yxv8b331.jpg


I think the Sea of Marmara and the Gulf of Alexandretta are pretty much up there.
Then Rhodoks are Trojans that's the real answer. :grin: Aside from that, do not take both Sarranids and Aserais as pure Arabs as their conical troops Mamluks (not saying Mamluks's are famous for their cavalry, just saying the name is exactly same) are clearly taken from Mamluks who governed Egypt. Like Khuzaits, I think Aserai is a mixture of Egypt, Arabs and definitely includes some Turkish elements due to Mamluks. Furthermore, in a battle against Aserai, I hit a cavalry around 220 with my glaive and I disliked him the moment I see him. After seeing the kill feed, I realised that he is an impostor of me that's the reason (his name is Haqan, which has "q" instead of "k" like my name, making him impostor :lol:). Jokes aside, there is Khergit clan in Khuzaits too, probably they took over Khuzaits in due time rather than coming from East later on. The last, I love seeing old Warband names like Khergit clan, Emir Dhiyul and especially Shibal Zumr village which has a castle on its own in this timeline. :grin:
 

Cèsar de Quart

Master Knight
Honestly, looking at that map, it would make a similar amount of sense if Charas = Chelez and Ortysia = Shariz, although to me, the location for Shariz that would make the most sense to me is actually in the "Constantinople Spot" where the yellow and brown parts meet, especially if we don't assume that the interior sea suddenly vanished.

I'm sure you'll agree that that kind of sea can't just vanish in 200 years. I tried to do the least amount of changes so the map makes a bit of sense from Warband's vantage point.

Also, Velgar doesn't really suit the Bannerlord naming convention, it sounds too Nordic or so.

I think it sounds Norman (Vlandian) enough, but to each their own.

Here are some alternatives:
Velucar/Velucan/Valucar/Valucan would be the "plainest" ways to convert the name into Bannerlordish
Vel Luca or Val Luca (possibly with an n or r tagged on) would sort of follow the example of Uxkhal/Ocs Hall with the whole two words thing. As a bonus, it would make it sound more pseudo-Italian/Latin.
Potentially you could turn some syllables around, kinda like Jelkala/Jaculan, resulting in something Veculan.

Something like Val de Luque or Val de Loc sounds good, actually. In fact, for a while I though Veluca was the castle of Verecsand, because I couldn't find any other reference to the city, and that was odd.
 
Then Rhodoks are Trojans that's the real answer. :grin: Aside from that, do not take both Sarranids and Aserais as pure Arabs as their conical troops Mamluks (not saying Mamluks's are famous for their cavalry, just saying the name is exactly same) are clearly taken from Mamluks who governed Egypt. Like Khuzaits, I think Aserai is a mixture of Egypt, Arabs and definitely includes some Turkish elements due to Mamluks. Furthermore, in a battle against Aserai, I hit a cavalry around 220 with my glaive and I disliked him the moment I see him. After seeing the kill feed, I realised that he is an impostor of me that's the reason (his name is Haqan, which has "q" instead of "k" like my name, making him impostor :lol:). Jokes aside, there is Khergit clan in Khuzaits too, probably they took over Khuzaits in due time rather than coming from East later on. The last, I love seeing old Warband names like Khergit clan, Emir Dhiyul and especially Shibal Zumr village which has a castle on its own in this timeline. :grin:
I think you misunderstood what I meant. couple posts ago I already talked about the Khuzeit/Khergit relations.

In Warband, we learn that the Khergit lands were conquered by an UNKNOWN EASTERN KINGDOM (Not Empire, Kingdom). This is a fact. There is nothing to argue about that. And actually we learn that it happened 50-100 years before the beginning of the Warband. (The character actualy says that his grandfather saw it. Thats why i said 50-100 years.) Which means, 100-150 years after Bannerlords beginning some Eastern Kingdom has to start invading the Khuzait or Ex-Khuzait lands, which ends with Khergits taking control and migrating to west and conquering the Eastern Calradian Empire. This is a fact. It is in the game. You should talk with the companians read their story if you want to learn about the lore.


No matter what others say, the game is highly influenced by the Turkic/Anatolian history. That's why Khergits have more background story than others. They are going to add a dlc about the eastern kingdom. Just like the timurids or mongols, it is going to invade Calradia. It doesn't matter if it is going to be a dlc or a stand alone game, i am pretty sure they want to do something like that.

By the way, it wouldn't shock me if they added something like ''Sultan Hakim's grandfather was actually a Khuzait.''
Like what I said, the game is influenced by the Turkic history and ''Mamluks'' are accepted as a part of it.
 

Scarf Ace

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVCM&B
I'm sure you'll agree that that kind of sea can't just vanish in 200 years. I tried to do the least amount of changes so the map makes a bit of sense from Warband's vantage point.
Yeah, as I said, it would make far more sense to retcon the interior sea into existence in 1257, and place the Sarranid territories on its northern coast.
If we talk about this from the standpoint of a hypothetical mod, that would even mean that you could have the Sarranids as a more settled/"mediterranean" faction, and a different, possibly more nomadically themed faction in Aserai territory.
You could do something similar with the Khergits, perhaps turning them from generic steppe nomads into a more settled version (with Imperial influence?), with a more classical steppe faction further east.

And the more I think of it, the more I like the idea of plonking a city in the location I mentioned. It just sort of makes sense for something to be there.

I think it sounds Norman (Vlandian) enough, but to each their own.
Agree to disagree, then.
Something like Val de Luque or Val de Loc sounds good, actually. In fact, for a while I though Veluca was the castle of Verecsand, because I couldn't find any other reference to the city, and that was odd.
A Frenchlike name would suit the Vlandians really well, especially if we consider the Vlandian elites to be pseudo-Norman. I like it!
You could even have it that the commoners inhabiting it might be of a different Vlandian background (they are mentioned to contain multiple linguistic groups after all), or be "natives", who call it Val di Luca or something instead, from which Veluca comes.
 

Ahtas

Recruit
I think you misunderstood what I meant. couple posts ago I already talked about the Khuzeit/Khergit relations.

In Warband, we learn that the Khergit lands were conquered by an UNKNOWN EASTERN KINGDOM (Not Empire, Kingdom). This is a fact. There is nothing to argue about that. And actually we learn that it happened 50-100 years before the beginning of the Warband. (The character actualy says that his grandfather saw it. Thats why i said 50-100 years.) Which means, 100-150 years after Bannerlords beginning some Eastern Kingdom has to start invading the Khuzait or Ex-Khuzait lands, which ends with Khergits taking control and migrating to west and conquering the Eastern Calradian Empire. This is a fact. It is in the game. You should talk with the companians read their story if you want to learn about the lore.


No matter what others say, the game is highly influenced by the Turkic/Anatolian history. That's why Khergits have more background story than others. They are going to add a dlc about the eastern kingdom. Just like the timurids or mongols, it is going to invade Calradia. It doesn't matter if it is going to be a dlc or a stand alone game, i am pretty sure they want to do something like that.

By the way, it wouldn't shock me if they added something like ''Sultan Hakim's grandfather was actually a Khuzait.''
Like what I said, the game is influenced by the Turkic history and ''Mamluks'' are accepted as a part of it.
I thought you said Khergits the ones who invade, yea thanks for correcting. :smile:
 

Earth Dragon

Veteran
Honestly I just chuck it up to the assumption that the maps in either games aren't the real shape of the world, and are just different renders of the same world by two different cartographers.

this right here is the best angle. Someone just did their best job describing the place before.

Warband was a kids drawing. Bannerlord is the professional rendition
 

Cèsar de Quart

Master Knight
this right here is the best angle. Someone just did their best job describing the place before.

Warband was a kids drawing. Bannerlord is the professional rendition

Honestly, the "professional rendition" makes very little geographical sense. Rivers flow willy-nilly, mountains are absurd from a tectonics point of view, and the map's areas are not different enough to give the sense of a distinct geographic difference. And what's that nonsense knob of streams and rivers in Husn Fulp which DON'T FLOW INTO THE SEA even though they run 10km from it?

Make North Vlandia and Battania greener, for instance. Make different mountain ranges look unique. The Alps and the Pyrinees look very different. Same for the Black Forest or the Grampians.

Don't take me wrong, the map looks good from a graphics perspective, but its geography is clearly gamey, and not realistic.
 

Tuco

Sergeant
WB
I don't realyl care about alignment to Warband but I wish they had gone with creating a massively detailed world environment, reduced it's complexity for the world map and then each battle is centered exactly where you start the battle in. Taking advantage of terrain features is super fun and scaling that up to the campaign level would be great. I'm already kind of tired of the same few battle scenes.
 

Cèsar de Quart

Master Knight
I don't realyl care about alignment to Warband but I wish they had gone with creating a massively detailed world environment, reduced it's complexity for the world map and then each battle is centered exactly where you start the battle in. Taking advantage of terrain features is super fun and scaling that up to the campaign level would be great. I'm already kind of tired of the same few battle scenes.

That would be great. Using the campaign map as a real template of what the battle map looks like.
 
I don't realyl care about alignment to Warband but I wish they had gone with creating a massively detailed world environment, reduced it's complexity for the world map and then each battle is centered exactly where you start the battle in. Taking advantage of terrain features is super fun and scaling that up to the campaign level would be great. I'm already kind of tired of the same few battle scenes.
The game has so much to add. I am waiting for deep Role Play elements rather than battle elements.
 

sajaxom

Recruit
I actually think the variation in city locations makes sense:
First, have you seen maps drawn from the early ADs up through the medieval ages, before we had compasses and sextants? They have huge variations in them, usually depending on where the author lived. Take a look at the Ptolemaic map vs the Tabula Rogeriana.
Second, the new map adds a huge addition to the east and south. The Khuzait and Aserai in Bannerlord aren't even in the Warband portion of Bannerlord, which means they had to invade it, and that falls right in line with the Hunnic and Arab invasions and mass migrations in the 400s through 700s AD. When the dust settled in Europe in the mid-700s, there were Arabs living in Spain (Umayyads), Baltic and Germanic peoples living in Italy (Lombards and Ostrogoths), North Africa (Vandals), Northern Spain (Visigoths), and Britain (Angles, Saxons, and Jutes), and many, many more. Many of these peoples didn't make up new place names - they either used translations of the local ones or used variations of the names from their homeland. When the Magyars arrived (modern Hungary) in the 800-900s they raided all the way to the French Atlantic coast. And that's all without mentioning the Vikings and Norman adventurers. Basically, when the Roman empire fell it left a power void, and everyone, from every side, picked apart it's corpse, descending on the weak successor kingdoms and pillaging them. I would expect the same from the fall of the Calradic empire. And that's basically the world we come into in Warband - several successor states (Swadians, Rhodoks, and Vaegir) fighting the settled frontiers of invader states (Nords, Khergits, and Sarranids).
Third, climate change can really screw with a map. It is thought to be one of the primary drivers of the great migrations during the 400s-700s, and it can rapidly change a landscape, especially where water is concerned. For a man-made example, see the Aral Sea - it has almost vanished in 60 years. For natural examples, see the Dead Sea or Lake Faguibine. Large bodies of water actually do just go away, whether by diversion or drought, and the lasting ecological damage can quickly turn light forest and grassland into arid and desert lands. And then people migrate away, which causes migration conflicts, which causes more migrations... etc.
 
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Androme1

Banned
It's a re-imagination, the intent is not consistency although some consistency was of course kept where it didn't interfere with the re-imagination.

The only thing they could do is switch places between Ostican and Sargot.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Yeah, the map bugs me. I'm constantly trying to get my bearings in relation to Warband's Calradia, but nothing lines up with where I remember it. Its only supposed to be 200 years earlier. The world doesn't really change so fast that the map would be unrecognizable in such a short timeframe. It just would've been nice if they kept more continuity in the map.
 

sajaxom

Recruit
Yeah, the map bugs me. I'm constantly trying to get my bearings in relation to Warband's Calradia, but nothing lines up with where I remember it. Its only supposed to be 200 years earlier. The world doesn't really change so fast that the map would be unrecognizable in such a short timeframe. It just would've been nice if they kept more continuity in the map.
Yes, it does. Look at any map of Europe in 400 AD and compare it with one of 600 AD. Better yet, look at maps FROM 400 AD vs those FROM 600 AD. The Tabula Peutingeriana and the Cosmas Indicopleustes's Map look completely different. As does the Mappa mundi d'Albi.
 

Cèsar de Quart

Master Knight
Yes, it does. Look at any map of Europe in 400 AD and compare it with one of 600 AD. Better yet, look at maps FROM 400 AD vs those FROM 600 AD. The Tabula Peutingeriana and the Cosmas Indicopleustes's Map look completely different. As does the Mappa mundi d'Albi.

You do know that these maps are just inaccurate, not real representations of the Earth... right?

Also, Bannerlord's and Warband's maps are not supposed to be cartographic interpretations of the "real "Calradia. They are Calradia. Ingame you know how much it takes from Epicrotea to Pravend. You traverse the distance yourself.

You look at the Tabula Rogeriana, and it's not telling you how much it takes from Palermo to Constantinople, because it's a decorative map. Most maps we have from before 1380 are not really practical, but prestige items, that's why many are also very inaccurate. T-O maps are no supposed to represent how people imagined their world, they're just concepts (just like people knew Medieval men didn't look like the people in the illuminated manuscripts or the church frescoes, they were conceptual images).

Anyway, the whole "it's just another different interpretation of Calradia" makes no sense to me.

It's a re-imagination, the intent is not consistency although some consistency was of course kept where it didn't interfere with the re-imagination.

The only thing they could do is switch places between Ostican and Sargot.

I changed Sargot into Veluca and the Sturgian castle besides Car Banseth is renamed Sargyv.
 
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