Dodging

[Ancient Whale]

Like the good boy that I am, I did a Search on the Suggestions forum about this. So if this has been suggested before, it's news to me(but nothing staggering, I would actually be surprised if no-one else has had this idea).

Anyway, my idea is that the Jump command could be made useful. As far as I know, it has basically no use at all for a footman. Riders can use it to jump over rocks, but footmen would gain nothing from that. Admittedly, it is seriously cool to jump up over a charging rider and kill him with your bastard sword in the air. I think the ability to dodge instead would improve the game. Basically, you would press space and move to either side simultaneously and your character would perform a quick "skip" in that direction. Heavily armored men would move little, perhaps one step, while a naked barbarian with 10 in athletics would leap to the side, land on his shoulders and roll back to his feet.

As it is now, the computer can quite easily dodge a charging lance by moving to either side and we puny humans with our slow reflexes can only ride by(unless we are lucky or the comp. makes a mistake). However, the computer can track us puny humans with infinite precision of their lance.


In short: Spacebar + strafe = dodge

 

[jrawlings]

What has been suggested along these lines is to tweak the lateral movement speed to put it on par with the forward/reverse movement speed. What this would accomplish is your dodge. Simply press A or D to dodge, all while preserving the precious jump button!

 

[Manitas]

In short: Spacebar + strafe = dodge

short,
makes sense,
got my vote.

 

[Tarrak]

It would also tweak the combat enough to even the score between foot and cavalry, so we wouldn't have to change cavalry too much (such as very limited amount of couched lance attacks).

I'm in.

 

[DaLagga]

Well, although i usually support almost any idea giving more power to unmounted characters, this just isn't one of them. First, if you could dodge, you'd be using it constantly when fighting cavalry, and there would be little they could do to stop it. It would basically make it impossible for a mounted unit to kill a footman who saw it comming. Secondly, if the AI made use of this, you might as well forget trying to use a lance, it would be worthless. So in the end, cavalry vs infantry would quickly turn into one big dash to the ground orgy, and would look neither realistic, nor be very fun to play IMO.

 

[barbaros]

I support dodging. But as pointed, it can be annoying. There must be some limitations. Instead of making dodging same for everyone, it can be tied to athletics and encumbrance just as running speed. If your athletics is low or you're wearing heavy armour, you can only make very short distance dodge. It can also have a necessary time interval between succesive dodges so that you or enemies doesn't make dodges very frequently. And AI should use it rarely. Maybe only high level soldiers should use it. So it wouldn't be annoying. In fact, if stamina was in the game, I would suggest making it consume a lot of stamina to limit dodging even more.

As I talk about dodging, I want to state that I want sprinting also. AI soldiers must sprint (with warcries preferrably) just 10-15 meters before two forces clash each other so that it would look a lot more exciting. Dodging and sprinting (and maybe crouching) would make foot combat a lot more fun and exciting. If those are added, maybe we won't have to run backwards continuously to fight 3-4 enemies on foot.

 

[okiN]

It's been discussed, can't be bothered to find a link though.

The idea's reasonable enough, for balances sake I think there there should be some serious restrictions, though. As pointed out, encumberance should limit how far you can dive, athletics reducing the penalties. Another factor could be the chance of coming out in a clean roll; if you're lightly armored and have high athletics, you'll have a high chance of rolling properly and getting to your feet quickly. However, if you're heavily armored, in all likelyhood you'll fall flat on your face and have to struggle a bit to get up. A recovery time might be a good idea so you couldn't just roll and cartwheel around all over the battlefield.

 

[quixotecoyote]

I really think this is unecessary. I never have much difficulty dodging ai lancers now, and the ai seems halfway decent at manuevering around my lance when its my turn. It seems like this would make enemy lancers fairly harmless to the player, which stinks because they should be a serious danger.

 

[svart]

good, you just simpilfied dodging controls.
Though i think it should be Strafe + spacebar = dodge, and not spacebar + strafe.
(if you hit space it jumps before even releasing it)
but that's minor details, thumbs up, hope to see that one showing up with proper animations.

 

[barbaros]

Another factor could be the chance of coming out in a clean roll; if you're lightly armored and have high athletics, you'll have a high chance of rolling properly and getting to your feet quickly.

Just a minute, Im confused. Are we talking about rolling when we say dodging?. I was thinking of some quick jumps to sides (or backwards) just to avoid being hit, not rolling. It would give us another way to defend ourselves. Currently only way of defence is to block unless you have much much superiror athletics and light armor to move extremely fast. Dodging will make foot combat deeper and more satisfying.

I really think this is unecessary. I never have much difficulty dodging ai lancers now, and the ai seems halfway decent at manuevering around my lance when its my turn.

I was considering it for foot combat mainly. If the restrictions I mentioned in my previous post have been applied, you can dodge 1 or maybe 2 lancers if they come one by one with large time intervals but difficult to dodge if 2-3 lancers close to each other come one after another.
For controls, double tap to directional keys (double tap to left for left dodging or double tap to back for quick jump to backwards) can be easier.

 

[Äkys]

I would also like to see AI try to dodge ranged weapons. (Archery being too easy at the moment?)

 

[Tarrak]

I think most of us are thinking in jumping to the side as in most FPS games. So thatyou jump and fall.

I agree that it shouldn't be useable all the time. There should be a certain time it takes before the person has gotten his bearing again. Besides each jump will leave him on the ground as if he had been knocked down.

Effectively he would be very vulnerable for an extended period of time. It should be a sort of last ditch effort to save yourself, not some combatfeat.

 

[Ancient Whale]

There is already a restriction on jumping in the game, so you can't bunny hop all over the battlefield. This could apply to the dodge function.

What I had in mind was a quick skip to the side, still keeping your feet. But I think the idea of throwing yourself to the side and on the ground sounds pretty good. It would severely limit it's use, since it leaves you very vulnerable to attack from other soldiers. But I still think very lightly armored people with high athletics could roll to their feet. A chance of failure would also limit it's use enough so you won't be "cartwheeling all over the battlefield".

What this could do to the lancer does worry me, so perhaps this could not be implemented until AI is improved so they can't magically know you are charging at them from behind(unless they can hear you, that is). But it does sound realistic that footsoldiers would try to evade a lance. Perhaps you can not dodge if there is someone beside you?

But it's nice to see some discussion about this, that was the point of the post.

P.S. Strafe + Spacebar does sound better, thanks for that. I don't trust the double strafe, since that could bring up the hassle of trying to inch to the side and ending up flat on your stomach.

 

[dirtbag]

Dodge is good, rolling is bad. Thats it.

 

[Volkier]

I personally don't see a point in having a 'dodge' if you cant move after executing it, and get hacked to death. You might as well take your chances with other things. 'Bunny hopping' was actually only possible in half-life engine based games, the rest had a similar 'strafe jumping' in which the person moved faster, but it required more skill, and was a lot less offencive, and mildly noticed in terms of movemnt. Currently, you already have sort of restricted jumping in M&B, so having your sidespeed on par with forward / backward speed would not result in allowing people to strafejump or bunny hop, so I do not see any reason of why any more restrictions should apply.

Dodging would solve a lot of issues, such as footmen complaining that they are underpowered, and ultimately resulting in nerf of horsemen, yourself and opponents likewise, reducing the difficulty and variety of combat. All for this idea.

 

[Vachir]

I think a roll would be a good animation for 'dodging', as it makes more sense to do a dive roll (yes even in armor) than a sideways leap when trying to get out of the way of something. Then again, I don't think this is what can solve the cavalry vs. infantry problem, except maybe on a small scale.

 

[Ryuta]

I'm sorry but I don't think rolling is the last thing a soldier does in battle field. Standing on four (to get up) in the middle of combat means you're dead.

I think jumping, or stepping sideways is much better.

 

[okiN]

Ryuta, depends on what kind of feature we're adding. I'm not exactly sure if we're talking about something you do to avoid getting hit in a swordfight or something you do to avoid getting hit by a charging warhorse. In the latter case I'd probably try to dive to one side and quickly roll back to my feet.

 

[Vachir]

Most training in hand to hand combat teaches you how to fall and roll safely, it is quite possible to dive, roll over one shoulder and land back on your feet without having to stop and get back up. That's how I would evade a charging horse anyway.

 

[Big J Money]

I'm just going to add, very quickly, how utterly stupid it would appear to have NPCs rolling around evertime they are charged by a horse. It reminds me of how Rome:Total War had mounted warriors that would jump over the heads of infantry during a charge. On first glance it looked very cool but after a while it just looked stupid to see horse riders jumping around like rabbits.

=$= Big J Money =$=