Dodging/lunging

[Jon Snow]

I know that the subject of dodging has been mentioned frequently before, but given that the release of Warband seems to have brought about more willingness among the TW team to change the basic mechanics of gameplay in substantial ways I thought we could have another go at it.
  We all know how dodging would work. Jab a key, press a directional button, or the reverse of that, blahblah. I'm not a big fan of the idea of double-taps, too easy to do by accident and you can't do diagonals that way. Anyway, it's the details of the actual implementation that are important.
Obviously, we don't want to see Jedi-style forward rolls all over the place, just some much quicker and longer steps in a particular direction (including diagonals). Dodges should be quick to avoid strikes after seeing an attack chambered, but should not cover a huge amount of distance (just enough to get in and out of attack range). Obviously this allows common and authentic strategies such as dodging backwards away from a strike, and then lunging forward and attacking simultaneously, but without the game looking so much like a medieval themed charity marathon. Once a dodge starts you can't stop it or turn within it except to a limited degree with the upper body to attack or block.
This sort of implementation would really go some way toward making the game look more authentic (along with a mouse sensitivity cap ).
Any thoughts?

 

[Urlik]

you could have the Z and X keys as a lean back to the side dodge rather than having rapid side to side movements

 

[someboddy]

Maybe after you dodge you'll be staggered for a very short time based on your encumbrance?

 

[Jon Snow]

you could have the Z and X keys as a lean back to the side dodge rather than having rapid side to side movements

I think that wouldn't really achieve the objective of getting out of the way of a downward slash, as instead of getting your head cut open, you get one of your legs cut off. I'm sure I'd prefer to move out of the way and attack at the same time.

Maybe after you dodge you'll be staggered for a very short time based on your encumbrance?

That sounds like a very sensible idea. Not staggered, as such, just unable to move opposite to the direction you've just moved. Overcoming momentum wearing lots of armour is difficult.

 

[someboddy]

Staggered because dodging with so much armor makes you loose your balance.

 

[Jon Snow]

Staggered because dodging with so much armor makes you loose your balance.

No it doesn't. We're not talking about jumping about here, just very quick steps. Please don't tell me you're going to start talking about cranes and not being able to stand up once you've fallen down. 

 

[someboddy]

Those quick sidesteps are made by shifting one's balance, and that balance can be restored either by stopping or by faltering. If it'll be faltering than we'll see tons of people on MP using that feature to run faster, so I think it should be stopping.

Any I'm talking about VERY short stagger time here - the only way to get a hit on an enemy that dodged your attacked while he is still staggered is if you have a fast weapon and he has an heavy armor. (daggers and medium armor can also work, but we don't see daggers in MP...)

 

[fatman123131]

I think it should be a skill, linked to athletics. its a very good idea and it might work. It may take a little bit of work to sort out which keys and the momentum of all your amor and stuff but i think it might actuly work

 

[Jon Snow]

Oh, I kind of see what you mean. I would have suggested that there was just a period (very short) where you can't move, but you can attack or block. I think that if it was related to the Athletics skill and encumbrance, governing the distance you can step and the cooldown period before you can dodge or run again, it would make sense.

 

[someboddy]

Also, attacking with big weapons during the dodge or the stagger should cause you to completely loose balance, resulting in a longer stagger or even falling down.

Realism-wise, swinging those big weapons requires correct footing and posture, and you can't have those after a dodge, so you're gonna trip.

Gameplay-wise, we don't want people to abuse the extra speed of the dodge and start doing anime-style-samurai-step-slashes all over the MP. Spinners are annoying enough...


Doing this with smaller weapons is OK because:
1) You can swing small weapons even with bad footing and posture, though you'll loose some power.
2) They are very rare on MP.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Someboddy the heaviest weapons in warband short of the maul weigh 4.5 kg.  Don't go overboard with random falling down. Nobody wants to see that.  A brief halt in movement after a lunge is sufficient.

 

[someboddy]

Even a 2KG object needs correct footing and posture to swing properly - especially while wearing armor...

 

[Berserker Pride]

Sure but the game assuming your posture was crap would be a terrible idea.  There are only so many controls and complicating issues with a random chance to fall down or stagger would make this idea a curse on the whole game.  Whereas done properly with set benefits(evading a blow faster than currently) and drawbacks(being held in place if you time it wrong) it might be good.

 

[someboddy]

Maybe you misunderstood, but I do not suggest random falling. What I suggest is that after a dodge the player will be staggered for a very short time. The Stark bastard suggested that during that stagger the player will be unable to move, but able to attack and block. I suggest that if the player attacks with a big weapon during that stagger he'll fall down.

The benefit is being able to land an attack with a big weapon and the dodge's speed bonus on an enemy when he least expects it. The drawback is falling down - so if you don't manage to hit him, he's gonna get a free hit on you.

 

[silencekyo]

Huge risk and damage at the cost of falling down/staggering some more if you miss?

 

[Jon Snow]

Well, as long as it's only mauls and really long pollaxes and halberds. There is actually no way you can fall over or stagger swinging a 2kg waster unless you're literally wilfully ignoring even the most basic attempts at correct footwork, speaking from experience.

 

[Night Ninja]

Realism-wise, swinging those big weapons requires correct footing and posture, and you can't have those after a dodge, so you're gonna trip.

Not if you're not doing a bloody D&D dodge. Real dodges just involve stepping off the line of the opponent's attack. In fact, many treatises demonstrate a (more or less) simultaneous dodge and counterattack.

 

[someboddy]

Humans do not move by pushing the ground - the move by shifting they balance and then moving their legs to support the new center of balance. The quick movement required of dodging requires a large balance shift, so restoring that balance will be harder and take longer than restoring the balance of regular movement. Simply stepping out of the enemy attack can be done with regular movement - dodging is for when you start reacting to the attack too late and regular movement would be too slow.

 

[Night Ninja]

What exactly do you see dodging as? Someone jumping out of the way? That's mostly in the realm of movie swordfighting. An actual void or dodge just involves the swordsman stepping off his original line. You're not meant to have a balance shift. That's a side effect of ****ty technique and grounding.

Additionally, dodging isn't going to help you if your defense is late, it'll just change where the blow lands.

 

[someboddy]

If dodging is a simple sidestep, than we already have that and this whole thread is pointless.