Do the Aserai have the worst noble troop tree?

[Totalgarbage]

While this is mostly coming from my personal experience rather than a quantitative research of any sort, I've always found the Aserai noble line quite underwhelming for a noble option. Despite the Faris line being designed to fill a unique role as a mounted skirmisher more than a shock cavalry, I feel that their low number of throwing weapons (only 5) and relatively low throwing skill at the highest rank (it's 140, so not really that low, but lower than the ~200 we usually expect from a tier 6 unit, also they have 170 riding and one handed as well) makes the unit unable to perform as well as I would like as a mounted skirmisher. As a result, after throwing their measly 5 jereeds (admittedly great throwing weapons), they need to compete with other Noble melee cavalry as a shock cavalry, where in my experience they get outperformed by the others. One additional thing to note, the T5 Aserai Veteran Faris has 20 less throwing proficiency (80) than its predecessor, the T4 Aserai Faris, which has a throwing proficiency of 100. I hope this gets fixed at some point.

Do you think the same? Do you also find the Aserai noble line underwhelming when compared to the other noble troops? If most people do, then I suggest to have either their polearm or sword replaced (I prefer polearm because otherwise they would become terrible on foot, and they could still use their jereeds as a polearm if they wanted to) with an additional stack of jereeds, as well as change the proficiency distribution to prioritise skills in throwing, so that they can perform better as a mounted skirmisher.

 

[anoddhermit]

The helmet is the biggest weakness, I doubt it's a skill related problem.

• Faris: 37
• Cataphract: 52
• Druzhinnik: 54
• Banner Knight: 50

Overall I think Cataphracts are best, although the lack of a (couchable) lance hurts them in some situations. They are the heaviest armored and unlike Sturgia and Vlandia don't have loadouts with short weapons crippling 2/3 of their units in cav moshes.

The Faris actually has a great weapon loadout that I wouldn't personally want changed - it's how I'd design a skirmisher cav(although obviously given Bannerlord's quirks you'd be best giving them a swinging polearm...) - but just doesn't compete in terms of armor, the helmet being the most glaring weakness.

Throwing cav do have a tendency to waste ammo if you're not micromanaging them, and like all throwing units, sometimes they decide to be stupid and use the melee mode to helplessly poke something that's beating their face in. Used well they can be fairly devastating, but they're a relatively more finicky troop than your more straightforward cav.

 

[Apocal]

Despite the Faris line being designed to fill a unique role as a mounted skirmisher more than a shock cavalry, I feel that their low number of throwing weapons (only 5) and relatively low throwing skill at the highest rank (it's 140, so not really that low, but lower than the ~200 we usually expect from a tier 6 unit, also they have 170 riding and one handed as well)

One additional thing to note, the T5 Aserai Veteran Faris has 20 less throwing proficiency (80) than its predecessor, the T4 Aserai Faris, which has a throwing proficiency of 100. I hope this gets fixed at some point.

@Signalize

 

[Totalgarbage]

The helmet is the biggest weakness, I doubt it's a skill related problem.

• Faris: 37
• Cataphract: 52
• Druzhinnik: 54
• Banner Knight: 50

Overall I think Cataphracts are best, although the lack of a (couchable) lance hurts them in some situations. They are the heaviest armored and unlike Sturgia and Vlandia don't have loadouts with short weapons crippling 2/3 of their units in cav moshes.

The Faris actually has a great weapon loadout that I wouldn't personally want changed - it's how I'd design a skirmisher cav(although obviously given Bannerlord's quirks you'd be best giving them a swinging polearm...) - but just doesn't compete in terms of armor, the helmet being the most glaring weakness.

Throwing cav do have a tendency to waste ammo if you're not micromanaging them, and like all throwing units, sometimes they decide to be stupid and use the melee mode to helplessly poke something that's beating their face in. Used well they can be fairly devastating, but they're a relatively more finicky troop than your more straightforward cav.

It's always the ****ing helmet for some reason lol, yeah they should get a better helmet. Honestly, while a 10 difference in skill levels don't really affect unit efficiency in battles against same tier soldiers as much as their loadout does, but the Faris Vanguard's skills are just so much lower than the other units' (they have 170 One Handed vs Vlandian BK's 220, Sturgian DC and Empire EC's 200 One Handed, 200 Polearms vs 260 Polearms of EC and BK, though it's 30 higher than DC's 170) that I think it may be making a huge difference.

I like the Faris's loadout as well, but as you said, cav skirmishers tend to waste ammo which makes their 5 jereeds more like 3 effectively , which is why I want an additional stack of jereeds (also, unit AI with 3 separate weapons tend to be a bit borked but that may have been fixed). Although admittedly, taking away their polearm would make their mounted combat so much less deadly and less survivable while taking away their sword would make them **** while dismounted and in sieges, so there isn't really a proper solution. In an ideal future where ranged damage is nerfed/armor protection against projectiles is buffed, we may be able to replace their shield with a stack of jereeds, but right now they would be very weak without them.

 

[anoddhermit]

It's always the ****ing helmet for some reason lol, yeah they should get a better helmet. Honestly, while a 10 difference in skill levels don't really affect unit efficiency in battles against same tier soldiers as much as their loadout does, but the Faris Vanguard's skills are just so much lower than the other units' (they have 170 One Handed vs Vlandian BK's 220, Sturgian DC and Empire EC's 200 One Handed, 200 Polearms vs 260 Polearms of EC and BK, though it's 30 higher than DC's 170) that I think it may be making a huge difference.

I like the Faris's loadout as well, but as you said, cav skirmishers tend to waste ammo which makes their 5 jereeds more like 3 effectively , which is why I want an additional stack of jereeds (also, unit AI with 3 separate weapons tend to be a bit borked but that may have been fixed). Although admittedly, taking away their polearm would make their mounted combat so much less deadly and less survivable while taking away their sword would make them **** while dismounted and in sieges, so there isn't really a proper solution. In an ideal future where ranged damage is nerfed/armor protection against projectiles is buffed, we may be able to replace their shield with a stack of jereeds, but right now they would be very weak without them.

Yeah it's hard to judge skill level impacts on combat performance, but it does seem they have low values for no discernible reason. That could be adjusted, but I expect the armor disparity is mostly what results in worse performance.

They do better against other cav on hold fire in my experience, and stay together more - they can end up sort of abandoning eachother to be outnumbered when some have throwing weapons left and others don't, plus the issue of some trying to melee with jereeds instead of their sword or lance. It's still quite nice to have the throwing weapons against infantry though - I'm going to have a much better time with 100 Faris against 100 Menavliatons than with the other noble cav, for example.

You can eek out wins against equal numbers of other noble cav in custom battles if you heavily micromanage them but it's rough and would be impractical in real battles while you're keeping track of other troops.

 

[Totalgarbage]

Yeah it's hard to judge skill level impacts on combat performance, but it does seem they have low values for no discernible reason. That could be adjusted, but I expect the armor disparity is mostly what results in worse performance.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the biggest reason was their helmet, but imo they also suffer in killing except in the case of throwing (but as I've said, this is all from my personal observations rather than any actual data) so I think that their proficiencies should be increased as well.

You can eek out wins against equal numbers of other noble cav in custom battles if you heavily micromanage them but it's rough and would be impractical in real battles while you're keeping track of other troops.

Yes, the player can probably make them a great unit, but I think that a unit requiring micromanagement to be as competitive makes that unit worse (since the management also takes away from player's personal combat effectiveness).

 

[Milandro]

I like that they have a solid range weapon and make a nice honour guard
I find they do well one one flank with cav archers on the other for disrupting the enemy before the infantry walls meet
They don’t insta stuck in like other melee cav.
I don’t think they are the best but they are well rounded and a nice unit to lead if you are doing a throwing play through

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the biggest reason was their helmet, but imo they also suffer in killing except in the case of throwing (but as I've said, this is all from my personal observations rather than any actual data) so I think that their proficiencies should be increased as well.

Yes, the player can probably make them a great unit, but I think that a unit requiring micromanagement to be as competitive makes that unit worse (since the management also takes away from player's personal combat effectiveness).

 

[Bluko88]

While this is mostly coming from my personal experience rather than a quantitative research of any sort, I've always found the Aserai noble line quite underwhelming for a noble option. Despite the Faris line being designed to fill a unique role as a mounted skirmisher more than a shock cavalry, I feel that their low number of throwing weapons (only 5) and relatively low throwing skill at the highest rank (it's 140, so not really that low, but lower than the ~200 we usually expect from a tier 6 unit, also they have 170 riding and one handed as well) makes the unit unable to perform as well as I would like as a mounted skirmisher. As a result, after throwing their measly 5 jereeds (admittedly great throwing weapons), they need to compete with other Noble melee cavalry as a shock cavalry, where in my experience they get outperformed by the others. One additional thing to note, the T5 Aserai Veteran Faris has 20 less throwing proficiency (80) than its predecessor, the T4 Aserai Faris, which has a throwing proficiency of 100. I hope this gets fixed at some point.

Do you think the same? Do you also find the Aserai noble line underwhelming when compared to the other noble troops? If most people do, then I suggest to have either their polearm or sword replaced (I prefer polearm because otherwise they would become terrible on foot, and they could still use their jereeds as a polearm if they wanted to) with an additional stack of jereeds, as well as change the proficiency distribution to prioritise skills in throwing, so that they can perform better as a mounted skirmisher.

They are probably tied with Druhinnik for worst T6 Cavalry yes.

The other problem is the Faris tries to be too many things. You can't be good at everything (at least not if you adhere to SP limits per Level), so because the Faris must split between One-Handed, Polearm, and Throwing it'll never match other units that are dedicated to just two skills. I guess that's good and bad. Good because it can fufill a lot of roles, bad because it'll struggle against most other cavalry.

Yeah it's a bit odd T4 Faris has higher throwing skill than T5 Veteran Faris. Probably should redistribute 20 SP from TwoHanded to Throwing for Veteran Faris. Not that 20 SP is really going to make a dramatic difference for Throwing, they'll just be a teeny bit more accurate.

Athletics 80
Riding 160
OneHanded 130
TwoHanded 60
Polearm 130
Bow 50
Crossbow 20
Throwing 80

The helmet is the biggest weakness, I doubt it's a skill related problem.

• Faris: 37
• Cataphract: 52
• Druzhinnik: 54
• Banner Knight: 50

Yes the low Head Armor is their biggest problem. You'd be surprised how much of a difference 10 Armor to a single location can have on a units performance 1v1.

This is my modded Vanguard Faris:

Wrapped Helmet with Mail Coif - 46 Head Armor (only armor change)
Reinforced Scale Pauldrons
Luxury Scale Armor - 65 Total Body Armor
Splint Vambraces - 42 Total Arm Armor
Plated Strip Boots - 45 Total Leg Armor

They also carry 33% Spiralled Mace, 66% Fine Steel Long Kaskara (mace set helps a lot in melee with other high tier cavalry)


Ah yes that's right the regular T4 Faris has better Head Armor than both the Veteran and Vanguard Faris in base game...

 

[Totalgarbage]

They are probably tied with Druhinnik for worst T6 Cavalry yes.

I wish the Druzhinnik Champion gets a 2-Handed axe or something (and their proficiencies get readjusted, for example by taking away some points from throwing and bow) so that they can also be a shock infantry when dismounted or at sieges (though I assume they would need to lose the polearm or otherwise their AI might get borked).

Yes the low Head Armor is their biggest problem. You'd be surprised how much of a difference 10 Armor to a single location can have on a units performance 1v1.

This is my modded Vanguard Faris:

Wrapped Helmet with Mail Coif - 46 Head Armor (only armor change)
Reinforced Scale Pauldrons
Luxury Scale Armor - 65 Total Body Armor
Splint Vambraces - 42 Total Arm Armor
Plated Strip Boots - 45 Total Leg Armor

They also carry 33% Spiralled Mace, 66% Fine Steel Long Kaskara (mace set helps a lot in melee with other high tier cavalry)

Nice! How did they work out? Did you see any noticeable improvements to their performance? As I've said, I think they are also lacking in their lethality compared to other noble cavalry except for their throwing (which a good portion gets wasted), do you agree or maybe it's just me?

 

[anoddhermit]

I wish the Druzhinnik Champion gets a 2-Handed axe or something (and their proficiencies get readjusted, for example by taking away some points from throwing and bow) so that they can also be a shock infantry when dismounted or at sieges (though I assume they would need to lose the polearm or otherwise their AI might get borked).

On the one hand, any noble cav with a serious 2 hander is likely going to become the new best cav.

On the other hand, Khan's Guard already exists and has been broken OP since forever. Would be interesting if Sturgian melee cav could actually hold their own against them, though I doubt axes would match up to the glaive. And Sturgia is the faction in most need of help right now.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

For the player's use in live battle they could be considered worst because they have less armor and will be defeated in a prolonged battle, that the player is most likely to have. For the AI it doesn't matter in auto calc and against the player they can be somewhat more damaging then other cavalry t6 just because they will get some cheap shots off with Javs.

 

[Totalgarbage]

On the one hand, any noble cav with a serious 2 hander is likely going to become the new best cav.

On the other hand, Khan's Guard already exists and has been broken OP since forever. Would be interesting if Sturgian melee cav could actually hold their own against them, though I doubt axes would match up to the glaive. And Sturgia is the faction in most need of help right now.

I agree that the Khan's Guard's glaive is what makes the unit so godly. Though a 2 handed axe with a shorter reach would probably make the unit less good than the KG (and potentially even worse on horse than it currently is). I think Sturgia's units are not in that bad of a state except for their archers (well, also their noble unit maybe?). Their biggest problem is how far apart their towns are from each other, as well as their terrain which is snowy for around half the year. One of their culture bonuses should be switched with one that decreases speed penalty in snow to make them better.

 

[Antaeus]

For the player's use in live battle they could be considered worst because they have less armor and will be defeated in a prolonged battle, that the player is most likely to have. For the AI it doesn't matter in auto calc and against the player they can be somewhat more damaging then other cavalry t6 just because they will get some cheap shots off with Javs.

They are far more annoying than better heavy cavalry for this reason. Which I guess makes them better than those better cavalry too. Because their javelins make them better than all the other paper-scissors-stone heavy cavalry and more likely to dish out casualties to the player's army with lucky shots.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

They are far more annoying than better heavy cavalry for this reason. Which I guess makes them better than those better cavalry too. Because their javelins make them better than all the other paper-scissors-stone heavy cavalry and more likely to dish out casualties to the player's army with lucky shots.

Yeah but the other t6 can do crowd control and mostly survive while KG (or other ranged) kill everything. But to me the Aserai just go down faster. I guess you could micro them more, but it's just not what I want in a Cav. I like the big dum Cataphracts !

 

[Bluko88]

I wish the Druzhinnik Champion gets a 2-Handed axe or something (and their proficiencies get readjusted, for example by taking away some points from throwing and bow) so that they can also be a shock infantry when dismounted or at sieges (though I assume they would need to lose the polearm or otherwise their AI might get borked).

Mmm I tried that, but makes them absolutely unstoppable in melee. You absolutely would have to take away their lance, which largely defeats purpose of them being cavalry to begin with.

Basically they'd be almost as bad as Khan's Guard. The Sturgian Noble Line should really just be a heavy infantry line all the way through, that way Sturgia actually has something going for it. Everyone having high tier cavalry is kinda boring.

Nice! How did they work out? Did you see any noticeable improvements to their performance? As I've said, I think they are also lacking in their lethality compared to other noble cavalry except for their throwing (which a good portion gets wasted), do you agree or maybe it's just me?

They still lose to Elite Cataphracts (also modded), though I don't think vanilla outcome would be too different. In a 100v100 Vanguard Faris inflict about 50 casualities, Elite Cataphracts inflict about 74 causalities.

Against Druzhinnik Champions (again modded) they win with 91 casualties inflicted, 63 casualties received. I'm sure in vanilla Druzhinnik would get annihilated.

And against Banner Knights (modded yet again) they really stomp with 72 casualties inflicted, 34 casualties received. I'm sure vanilla would be much worse, total landslide victory for Faris. A bit odd considering my modded Banner Knights and Elite Cataphracts usually have pretty even trades fighting to the last 10-20 men, just one of those things where certain units are good against one thing, poor against others.

Against my nerfed Khan's Guard they inflict 81 casualties, suffer 64 casualties. Obviously in vanilla Khan's Guard will destroy Vanguard Faris with total impunity like everything else.

I consider these all acceptable results (would like Banner Knights to do better, but eh). If I feel up to it may try versus with vanilla troops.


That said if you implemented my Vanguard Faris into vanilla game, I'm sure they'd be OP, just not Khan's Guard OP. Khan's Guard are just an abomination. They might not be so bad if they were infantry like Fians. If part of you recoils at the thought of making Fians mounted horseman, then that's basically what the Khan Guard is when you think about it. Why TW hasn't simply given them all sabers as quick easy nerf is beyond me, still would be best Horse Archers in game.

That said you could conceivably split the Khuzait Noble Line into two branches. Basically leave the HA line as is, just without the Glaive, and then create a "squishy" mounted shock troop. Something like this:

 

[Totalgarbage]

Mmm I tried that, but makes them absolutely unstoppable in melee. You absolutely would have to take away their lance, which largely defeats purpose of them being cavalry to begin with.

Basically they'd be almost as bad as Khan's Guard. The Sturgian Noble Line should really just be a heavy infantry line all the way through, that way Sturgia actually has something going for it. Everyone having high tier cavalry is kinda boring.

Yeah, 4/6 noble units being shock cavalry is boring I agree. It's interesting though, while I did guess that Sturgian Druzhinik Champions would be better with a 2 hander, but I thought that they would also be more vulnerable due to the shorter range of a 2H axe. I wonder if they would be as strong without a lance while still being a mounted unit or maybe more balanced.

They still lose to Elite Cataphracts (also modded), though I don't think vanilla outcome would be too different. In a 100v100 Vanguard Faris inflict about 50 casualities, Elite Cataphracts inflict about 74 causalities.

Against Druzhinnik Champions (again modded) they win with 91 casualties inflicted, 63 casualties received. I'm sure in vanilla Druzhinnik would get annihilated.

And against Banner Knights (modded yet again) they really stomp with 72 casualties inflicted, 34 casualties received. I'm sure vanilla would be much worse, total landslide victory for Faris. A bit odd considering my modded Banner Knights and Elite Cataphracts usually have pretty even trades fighting to the last 10-20 men, just one of those things where certain units are good against one thing, poor against others.

Against my nerfed Khan's Guard they inflict 81 casualties, suffer 64 casualties. Obviously in vanilla Khan's Guard will destroy Vanguard Faris with total impunity like everything else.

I consider these all acceptable results (would like Banner Knights to do better, but eh). If I feel up to it may try versus with vanilla troops.

I don't know if this sounds impressive or not, since I don't know what your other modded units' loadouts and skills are like, but interesting nevertheless.

While I probably haven't made it clear, I actually don't mind the Aserai FV being the weakest noble unit. I think the Aserai probably have the best unit roster in the game (and the most defensible geographic location on the overworld map). None of their units are subpar, and their infantry is the best according to many people (as well as my experiences). I mostly want to make them lean more into their role as a cav skirmisher by giving them a 2nd jereed to make the noble units more varied.

The Khan's Guard on the other hand? TW straight up put the best unit in the game by a landslide into a kingdom with an already incredible army roster and cheap tactics. Even though the Khuzait are my favourite faction due to their aesthetic, they are really unfun to play due to being the easy mode.

 

[Agroplode]

I think AI have problems using the right weapon at the right time. So the more weapons they have, the higher chance they are using the wrong weapon.

No tier 6 noble should have bad armor, not even Khans Guard. They got the curved boots with +5 armor or so.