Do Rhodok/Nord really need cavalry?

[RAD_X]

no, you specifically said "...everybody needs cavalry (except maybe nords), everybody needs pikemen or atlest spearmen to counter cavalrry, and everybody needs ranged troop..."

i'm proposing, for instance, that instead of pikes to take horses out... they get arbalests! something like that. i suggest radically different troops. you can have your standard footmen, even, very different. give one faction a swordbreaker! i'd love to see that.

The fact that 2 factions have same troop types doesn't make them the same. Do you see many similarities between Khergit mounted archers and Swadian heavy knights? i don't. Both are mounted troops though. For example Rhodoks can get medium cavalry with or without ranged weapons . Will it make them identical to either Swadia or Khergits? Hardly, i say it'll even them up. Same applies for spearmen/pikemen. Many (not all of course) historical prototypes behind the Native factions had either pikemen or spearmen, or both. I don't see why the game can't use some to. If more factions will get both cavalry and anti-cavalry troops, than maybe there will be less of a mob-on-mob kind of fighting, and more of strategic thinking.

 

[Wu-long]

no, you specifically said "...everybody needs cavalry (except maybe nords), everybody needs pikemen or atlest spearmen to counter cavalrry, and everybody needs ranged troop..."

i'm proposing, for instance, that instead of pikes to take horses out... they get arbalests! something like that. i suggest radically different troops. you can have your standard footmen, even, very different. give one faction a swordbreaker! i'd love to see that.

The fact that 2 factions have same troop types doesn't make them the same. Do you see many similarities between Khergit mounted archers and Swadian heavy knights? i don't. Both are mounted troops though. For example Rhodoks can get medium cavalry with or without ranged weapons . Will it make them identical to either Swadia or Khergits? Hardly, i say it'll even them up. Same applies for spearmen/pikemen. Many (not all of course) historical prototypes behind the Native factions had either pikemen or spearmen, or both. I don't see why the game can't use some to. If more factions will get both cavalry and anti-cavalry troops, than maybe there will be less of a mob-on-mob kind of fighting, and more of strategic thinking.

Agreed ^^

 

[scythe111]

no, you specifically said "...everybody needs cavalry (except maybe nords), everybody needs pikemen or atlest spearmen to counter cavalrry, and everybody needs ranged troop..."

i'm proposing, for instance, that instead of pikes to take horses out... they get arbalests! something like that. i suggest radically different troops. you can have your standard footmen, even, very different. give one faction a swordbreaker! i'd love to see that.

The fact that 2 factions have same troop types doesn't make them the same. Do you see many similarities between Khergit mounted archers and Swadian heavy knights? i don't. Both are mounted troops though. For example Rhodoks can get medium cavalry with or without ranged weapons . Will it make them identical to either Swadia or Khergits? Hardly, i say it'll even them up. Same applies for spearmen/pikemen. Many (not all of course) historical prototypes behind the Native factions had either pikemen or spearmen, or both. I don't see why the game can't use some to. If more factions will get both cavalry and anti-cavalry troops, than maybe there will be less of a mob-on-mob kind of fighting, and more of strategic thinking.

that's what i've been getting at ... everyone basically needs a counter to every other class, but i don't think everybody should have even remotely similar weapons. i'm ecstatic that the factions aren't identical, but i think they could be even more specialized.

the idea that everyone needs pikemen/spearmen i disagree with, too. give somebody a halberd or the ability to lay down caltrops.

 

[RAD_X]

that's what i've been getting at ... everyone basically needs a counter to every other class, but i don't think everybody should have even remotely similar weapons. i'm ecstatic that the factions aren't identical, but i think they could be even more specialized.

the idea that everyone needs pikemen/spearmen i disagree with, too. give somebody a halberd or the ability to lay down caltrops.

Well, i'm against identically looking units myself, however Rhodoks and Swadians do kind of look very similar, like two different states of the same region, so there shouldn't be a huge problem if their units look somewhat alike. Also when i mean that there should be pikemen/spearmen and cavalry for everybody, i don't suggest that those units should look uniformally across the board. They will have different looking ethnically-inspired garbs and armor, shields and weapons. High tier troops can also have halberds, or glaives, or whatever to mix it up. However, historically pikes have been a pretty standard weapon, and i think you can't go wrong by giving them out to several factions. I know that Western Europe used pikes (Swadia, Rhodoks), Eastern Europe used pikes (Vaegirs) and everybody used spears. To balance the game out, pikemen could be made a high-tier troop so the AI wouldn't just spam the whole field with them, as that might spoil the fun for both mounted and dismounted players.

As to cavalry for Rhodoks, i think some people suggested mounted crossbowmen, and i think it's a great idea too. So for instance, Rhodoks can have light knights (sort of like Khergit Lancers) and mounted crossbowmen. I think that would make them a more interesting faction to play.

 

[Alexa]

without mounts, nations without them would be underpowered

 

[scythe111]

that's what i've been getting at ... everyone basically needs a counter to every other class, but i don't think everybody should have even remotely similar weapons. i'm ecstatic that the factions aren't identical, but i think they could be even more specialized.

the idea that everyone needs pikemen/spearmen i disagree with, too. give somebody a halberd or the ability to lay down caltrops.

Well, i'm against identically looking units myself, however Rhodoks and Swadians do kind of look very similar, like two different states of the same region, so there shouldn't be a huge problem if their units look somewhat alike. Also when i mean that there should be pikemen/spearmen and cavalry for everybody, i don't suggest that those units should look uniformally across the board. They will have different looking ethnically-inspired garbs and armor, shields and weapons. High tier troops can also have halberds, or glaives, or whatever to mix it up. However, historically pikes have been a pretty standard weapon, and i think you can't go wrong by giving them out to several factions. I know that Western Europe used pikes (Swadia, Rhodoks), Eastern Europe used pikes (Vaegirs) and everybody used spears. To balance the game out, pikemen could be made a high-tier troop so the AI wouldn't just spam the whole field with them, as that might spoil the fun for both mounted and dismounted players.

As to cavalry for Rhodoks, i think some people suggested mounted crossbowmen, and i think it's a great idea too. So for instance, Rhodoks can have light knights (sort of like Khergit Lancers) and mounted crossbowmen. I think that would make them a more interesting faction to play.

you have a point with the rhod, swad thing. but the pikes need to be very varied, if everybody does get one. long, short, shield, no shield, bracing ability, no bracing ability, 1 throw, etc.

i still have a problem with changing a faction's culture and play style so they can play capture the flag :p (but i'll admit they should get some kind of mounts. *IMPLEMENT CAMELS* jk )

 

[Alexa]

camels would fit for khergit i suppose 

 

[scythe111]

camels would fit for khergit i suppose 

nah they're supposed to be mongol-ish.

 

[Alexa]

ahh

 

[RitoDurito]

It would be unfair if they didnt have cavalry tbh

 

[RAD_X]

camels would fit for khergit i suppose 

nah they're supposed to be mongol-ish.

That's true, but apparently a new Turk-isnpired faction may or may not be included in the game, so i guess we have a slim chance of seeing camels. Or maybe we'll have to wait till MB2 for that.

 

[Prussian Iron]

without mounts, nations without them would be underpowered

seriously? thats all you have to say? here we are having a complex debate over this...and you just jump in and say an (incomplete) sentence.

What nobody is seeing here is that one of the key factors of this game is the individuality of the different factions cultures; giving Italians (Rhodoks) cavalry wouldn't be bad or anything, just dont give them anything but mediocre cavalry. If you've played M2:TW, then the Rhodoks should get the equivalent of the English Hobilars; poorly equipped, poorly armoured, but fast as all hell.

Remember: Realism and individuality takes preference to balance. playing the Rhodoks should be very hard.

@Rad_X: Those are just rumours. it's obvious that they aren't including a new faction; we would have seen screenies by now, and I'm sure someone would have found something in the Warbands folder. Besides, camels wouldn't be too great; they're really slow, they can't really have any armor, and fighting from it would be difficult. Yes, they were used in real life. No, they would not defeat any sort of serious army.

Though I wish they would add a few more kingdoms, like an Arabic one, and a German/Slavic one.

 

[RAD_X]

@Rad_X: Those are just rumours. it's obvious that they aren't including a new faction; we would have seen screenies by now, and I'm sure someone would have found something in the Warbands folder. Besides, camels wouldn't be too great; they're really slow, they can't really have any armor, and fighting from it would be difficult. Yes, they were used in real life. No, they would not defeat any sort of serious army.

Though I wish they would add a few more kingdoms, like an Arabic one, and a German/Slavic one.

Those are just rumors, that's true. But when is the game coming out? I thought it was scheduled III quarter of this year which is right now, so if it was rescheduled maybe they will have time to add a new faction Though the chances're pretty slim i guess.

As to saying that Rhodok medium cavalry will be not very useful, i don't know about that. Khergit Lancer's aren't doing too bad against Swadian Knights, i guess some sort of a balancing tweak can make medium cavalry a viable troop type.

Though I wish they would add a few more kingdoms, like an Arabic one, and a German/Slavic one.

Hush, you'll have a billion posts saying that Vaegirs are Slavic enough

Swadians could also pass as German Knights i guess, it would be great if there was a larger variety of unit types and outfits for them though.

 

[Prussian Iron]

I always have heard that the release is set in february 2010. never heard anything different.

And the Swadians are more French than German. the French were more chivalrous, and used mainly crossbows, whereas the holy roman empire (germany) would have used an army composed mostly of spear infantry up until the high middle ages and Gothic plate armor and culture came about. then it became more knight and spearmen.

and Vaegirs are based off of the Kievan Rus and the Republic of Novgorod, basically a mix of eastern and western russia.

 

[RAD_X]

I always have heard that the release is set in february 2010. never heard anything different.

And the Swadians are more French than German. the French were more chivalrous, and used mainly crossbows, whereas the holy roman empire (germany) would have used an army composed mostly of spear infantry up until the high middle ages and Gothic plate armor and culture came about. then it became more knight and spearmen.

and Vaegirs are based off of the Kievan Rus and the Republic of Novgorod, basically a mix of eastern and western russia.

February 2010? Ok, thanks for the info.

As for the Swadians - maybe, i don't know that much about the medieval Europe. Though i'd guess that most of the armies of any nations and on any continents used spears. It's arguably the cheapest and the most ancient weapon (after probably club), and it's in effective use even up to this very day, any gun with a bayonet is pretty much a spear. I bet all the militias were armed with spears or pikes.

 

[Moss]

Remember: Realism and individuality takes preference to balance. playing the Rhodoks should be very hard.

Rhodoks have excellent spear men and strong crossbowmen, playing as them shouldn't be hard. Some weak cavalry helps to break up enemy cavalry charges and harass the enemy, but their strength lies in strong footmen and good ranged ability. I still think giving them skirmishing cavalry, maybe mounted crossbowmen, would keep the factions uniqueness, whilst keeping the balance that makes gameplay fun.

@Rad_X: Those are just rumours. it's obvious that they aren't including a new faction; we would have seen screenies by now, and I'm sure someone would have found something in the Warbands folder. Besides, camels wouldn't be too great; they're really slow, they can't really have any armor, and fighting from it would be difficult. Yes, they were used in real life. No, they would not defeat any sort of serious army.

No, they aren't. It's been confirmed multiple times that they're adding a new faction, they're just keeping exactly what they are under wraps.

There's only been one screenshot released, and it's a bit hard to place culture wise:

隐藏

However there are a lot of new scale armours in the texture files of warbands, and the module.ini contains references to bamboo, so take that as you will.

 

[RAD_X]

No, they aren't. It's been confirmed multiple times that they're adding a new faction, they're just keeping exactly what they are under wraps.

There's only been one screenshot released, and it's a bit hard to place culture wise

Good point, i forgot about that guy in Asian(???) looking armor.

What about that one though? I don't know if it's European, or Asian, or Middle Eastern.

http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/14331957/mount--blade-warband/images/mount-blade-warband-20090602103940813.html?page=mediaFull

I would also agree that light or medium cavalry is better than no cavalry at all. Not sure if that should apply to Nords, i think they just might be that one faction that doesn't need mounted troops. On the other hand, if Nords would have cavalry as a branch or a separate troop tree, the players will be able to choose to use it or not.

 

[kiarj]

There's only been one screenshot released, and it's a bit hard to place culture wise:

隐藏

However there are a lot of new scale armours in the texture files of warbands, and the module.ini contains references to bamboo, so take that as you will.

That armor looks chinese by the 7 hells, the crossbow only reinforce that. Too bad we can't see the tip of the weapon, but the dragon shoulderguards are hinting toward chinese.

 

[Sibilance]

Here's a keep-it-simple suggestion: How about only giving them the cavalry in Conquest and Capture the Flag, and giving them other appealing infantry options in other game types? Asymmetrical-but-balanced gameplay is more fun and better game design than just dishing out cavalry to everyone.

Gonna expand on this. What would really fit the bill here is a class for all the Rambo-style players out there. Some kind of troop with a huge Athletics score and great light-to-midrange armor options, built for rushing headlong into battle, dodging horses and arrows, doing a lot of damage, and dying a glorious death. I see a lot of folks playing in light armor and just hoping to stay mobile until they get tagged, so let's give 'em a class to fit the bill. God knows all you berserker-style Nord players who are going in naked with only a Great Axe and a dozen throwing axes deserve all the love the Devs can give you. <3

The Rhodoks are a little trickier, as they don't have an archetype for their perfect infantry troop to round out the team. A mounted crossbowman could be a great thing to have just for variety, but there's something to be said about keeping it all at ground-level. Both Rhodok infantry classes tend to stay in light armor more than any other faction -- with mainly Ragged Outfits and Aketons standing between Rhodoks and oblivion, I think a new damage-soaking wrecking ball is in order. They really could use a new troop built for aggression, with some decent cheap Haubergeon-level armor, a pile of Power Strike and STR, and plenty of Ironflesh to soak up damage.

Our current Rhodok foot line is really a bit too geared for defense to suit a lot of typical playstyles in Mount & Blade's crucial FPS-junkie demographic. Without cohesive team support Rhodoks in multiplayer tend to get picked off and overrun. Instead of basically nudging Rambo-style players toward cavalry if they want to run off and die gloriously, give them a big hulking tank on foot so they can still die gloriously and help their fellow footmen a bit in the process!  They'd also do well to have a loadout which complements the Sergeants, perhaps starting with moving the 2H Hammers and Morningstars over to these new troops. Sergeants should also get some more Athletics to aid them in using their pikes to the fullest against fleet-footed enemies.

Again, the current Cavalry troops could take their place for Conquest and CTF, and we could all have a blast enjoying M&B's visceral infantry combat in a big rolling dogpile of death in the other modes. Sound good to anyone?

 

[Wu-long]

No, they aren't. It's been confirmed multiple times that they're adding a new faction, they're just keeping exactly what they are under wraps.

There's only been one screenshot released, and it's a bit hard to place culture wise

Good point, i forgot about that guy in Asian(???) looking armor.

What about that one though? I don't know if it's European, or Asian, or Middle Eastern.

http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/14331957/mount--blade-warband/images/mount-blade-warband-20090602103940813.html?page=mediaFull

I would also agree that light or medium cavalry is better than no cavalry at all. Not sure if that should apply to Nords, i think they just might be that one faction that doesn't need mounted troops. On the other hand, if Nords would have cavalry as a branch or a separate troop tree, the players will be able to choose to use it or not.

That sorta just screams Chinese at me

You see any Chinese dramas (ancient) all foot soldiers wear some normal shirt and then some metal around them