[Discussion] [US_PW_East] New poll: What kind of event would you like to play?

[Splintert]

Austro, for being so vehemently opposed to refunding due to laziness you sure seem eager to ignore why this tradition, that people seem to think has been going on since the beginning of time, started in the first place.

Oh, players aren't hiring protection for the purpose of guarding against rulebreakers. That's just a side effect.

 

[Austro]

Austro, for being so vehemently opposed to refunding due to laziness you sure seem eager to ignore why this tradition, that people seem to think has been going on since the beginning of time, started in the first place.

Oh, players aren't hiring protection for the purpose of guarding against rulebreakers. That's just a side effect.

            In your opinion Admins wanting to " Shut " the person up is why it began. There is a difference between having to listen to some annoying noob in admin chat spamming for a refund and fully investigating an RDM or NLR case. I have probably dealt with hundreds of cases so I have a lot of experience with them. In a perfect case, someone reports in admin chat, I teleport to them, ask them questions to deem whether it was an actual RDM or not, I then teleport to the accused, ask them questions. If I find conflict relating to RP chat I check the logs and if the accused is guilty they get punished. Once they are punished, I teleport back to the victim and ask them how much they lost. I usually don't refund them 100% even though it's not a rule and everything is fine. Now, it would be a different story if the person was spamming admin chat the entire time I was trying to resolve the case. And this has happened many times before, I have refused to help people because they either dis-respect me or spam admin chat.

I only want to make sure that rule - abiding players get compensated for what they lost. Completely shutting them out is NOT the solution.

 

[Suspicous Pilgrim]

Refusing to help people who don't disrespect you. That's ****ty administrating.

 

[Austro]

Who don't disrespect me? What?

 

[Suspicous Pilgrim]

My bad, those that do distespect. An admin's job is to help everyone out and treat every person needing help equally, not select high priority players because their tone or grammar is better.

 

[Austro]

" Hey Admin, hurry the **** up already and ****ing refund me. "


" This ****ing admin is lazy as **** "

" This admin always ignores me, all admins on this server are ****. "


That is the kind of dis-respect I am talking about, and it is all to often I hear it.

 

[Suspicous Pilgrim]

Yeah, so? They're just as entitled to being helped as a polite player.

 

[Austro]

Yeah, so? They're just as entitled to being helped as a polite player.

haha, are you kidding me? I'm not wasting my time on a player who doesn't show even an ounce of respect for admins, and rather blatantly dis-respects them.

It is a current server rule on the East RP server that you are to respect admins.

Maybe you can tolerate blatant dis-respect for whatever unknown reason you have, but I don't.

 

[GK_JaXm]

 

[Alekseev370]

I completely agree with removing refunds. Yeah, people may be killed by randomers, they may be pissed off after it, but more often than not, it could have been avoided. It's usually quite obvious who the randomers are. Stick to groups, keep an eye on your surroundings. You should be doing this anyways to avoid being robbed. This will be even more important with no limits on robbing.

 

[Austro]

I completely agree with removing refunds. Yeah, people may be killed by randomers, they may be pissed off after it, but more often than not, it could have been avoided. It's usually quite obvious who the randomers are. Stick to groups, keep an eye on your surroundings. You should be doing this anyways to avoid being robbed. This will be even more important with no limits on robbing.

What you just said is situation based, which is what Admin Investigations are for. You cannot universally remove refunding because not all situations are going to occur like you described them.

 

[Adelade]

I have led a faction many times in PW and I agree that before I do what what I want to do in PW, the rules are something that forces linearity on my RP.  In real life, people wouldn't be spending or working for their own money if they could just make up a bull**** reason for a refund from some mystical deity or spend free money.I also think the definition of Fail RP is too limiting. RP does mean am bandit rob u, it may not be specific but it is roleplay. I have been saying "pay 1000 or pay another way" for months, this is the same thing just different wording. A bandit in real life does not give a **** about what you consider nicety or not.I don't think their should be restrictions about reasons for war as long is their is a reason; This server has gotten stagnant as **** because people who make a faction consider a valid reason for war to be some untouchable thing and complain anytime a war gets started for ANY reason.I think the current rules cater too much to peoples rage and not enough to realism or even  fun for everyone.The current rules should definitely  be slimmed down.

 

[Dark_Hamlet]

Concerning the refunds:

  I remember back when I was an administrator in the United server and I almost always denied to give any refunds. The two most common responses I used to receive from the victims after denying to give refunds were:

1. Ah, forget it then (concerning the rule breaker).

2. You **** (usually directed to my mother and sometimes in dialects).



Refunds are an artificial way of earning money and a disrespect with the mapper who created the economy in the scene.

 

[Aldric]

So. Them refunds.

Basically, the original intent of a refund as created by Aldric on EU_A back nearly a year and a half ago was, quite literally, to shut the "victim" up. Over time, as the "victims" became more numerous and came to the realization that they could make money by capitalizing on administrator laziness, incompetence, or corruptness. So, over more time, the high admins of the EU_A server and NAPW servers created this idea that the player is entitled to a refund in almost any situation in which they were slightly wronged. At first it wasn't too bad, a little bit of extra money didn't hurt too many people. However, over time, due to a growing reliance on this refund money, players simply stopped making stuff. It's why there are no horses. People don't make armour or weapons very often, either. Without a doubt, there is more money spawned into the game by admins than has been collected by players at any point in time.

Taking away administrator refunds entirely removes the incentive to whine to admins for money. The only benefit a player can get is removing a rulebreaker, which benefits everyone. If their case is not worthy of removing a rule breaker, they do not deserve to be refunded for a slight inconvenience.

On that note, if administators do not spawn refunds even for those victims of verified rule breakers, it will create a deeper reliance on other players to either fund them, protect them, or craft new things for them. The more negatives there are to being killed, the more likely a player is going to desperately avoid death. Avoiding death through in-character methods is pretty much the basis of all spontaneous roleplay. Players who legitimately fear death are considerably less likely to perform suicide charges from the spawn to an enemy castle, or wildly attacking a much larger group of guards for a miner in the off chance they win the battle and take the loot.

Basically, the idea behind removal of refunds is to give players an incentive to live by creating larger, more lasting negatives to dying (be it by rule breaking or not).

Actually you are right Splint, can't say otherwise. But people would not tolerate the change so easily, a slight reeducation ( for exemple, punish the rulebreaker or refund ) would get a better chance to suceed

 

[Thorenstein_Paalson]

I haven't read anything that makes me think there are any more rules necessary than "roleplay well". That would cover randoming, war rules, robbing, NLR, etc. And with these rules, an admin should be almost unnecessary on a good server. In each of the last two days on the Forge Hardcore Roleplay server there were no admins on for a couple of hours and there were small groups of randomers and the community banded together to hunt down the "murderers", I even saw a reward being put out on one of them. No one raged, they simply took care of it. And after attempting to roleplay it a few times, they simply started vote kicking the players. That's the way a server should be.

And without all the unnecessary rules, admins are free to focus on serious issues. Just think of how much time admins waste trying to figure out if someone declared their reason for war four times in chat or three, if someone waited 12 or 15 minutes to rob the same person, if someone deserves a refund, etc. while people run around the map randoming.

Not to mention, how incredibly sanitary and boring all the rules make the game. It feels more like a game of candy land where players argue over whether they moved their character three places or two. There's no element of danger or excitement or need to cooperate. And if you die, no worry. An admin will give you all your money back if you complain enough.

I have led a faction many times in PW and I agree that before I do what what I want to do in PW, the rules are something that forces linearity on my RP.  In real life, people wouldn't be spending or working for their own money if they could just make up a bull**** reason for a refund from some mystical deity or spend free money.I also think the definition of Fail RP is too limiting. RP does mean am bandit rob u, it may not be specific but it is roleplay. I have been saying "pay 1000 or pay another way" for months, this is the same thing just different wording. A bandit in real life does not give a **** about what you consider nicety or not.I don't think their should be restrictions about reasons for war as long is their is a reason; This server has gotten stagnant as **** because people who make a faction consider a valid reason for war to be some untouchable thing and complain anytime a war gets started for ANY reason.I think the current rules cater too much to peoples rage and not enough to realism or even  fun for everyone.The current rules should definitely  be slimmed down.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Austro]

Refunds are an artificial way of earning money and a disrespect with the mapper who created the economy in the scene.

But your forgetting the fact that they had that money to begin with by earning money legit. They should be entitled to a fraction of what they lost, if the server enforces RDM and NLR they should compensate those that are the victims of it.

 

[Dark_Hamlet]

Someone took the money he lost. If you generate more money by artificial means you'll be harming the economy.

Many of the victims will lie. For example, if a player lost 5k, but ask a bigger amount (like 75k), the administrator will almost certainly give to him the amount he asked.

 

[Austro]

Someone took the money he lost. If you generate more money by artificial means you'll be harming the economy.

Many of the victims will lie. For example, if a player lost 5k, but ask a bigger amount (like 75k), the administrator will almost certainly give to him the amount he asked.

Two things wrong here.

1. If someone lost 5k and they claim they lost 75k, atleast in me, that would raise some red flags that they are lying and I would investigate further.

2. If someone were to lie, and say they lost only 1k but demanded 5k, then what I'm proposing comes into effect and they get only 30% of what they ask for. Which is close to around what they actually lost. If someone demands MUCH MORE because of the 30% rule, it will be easier to catch them in their lie because you can tell they didn't loose that much money by checking their pouch and their dead body to see how much armor they had on.


And more often than not it is going to be the rule breaker to pick up the pouch. And if found guilty, they should be punished anyway. Shutting players out is not the answer and will never be the answer. I have been on the other side of being RDM'd and Revenge killed and I was glad when an admin was there to give me a little boost because I was broke. I was rule - abiding, I worked for my armor, what gives someone the right to kill me by breaking rules and leave me broke? If an admin punishes the rule breaker, that means they were found guilty meaning I was killed via rule breaking. Meaning I should have what I had on before I got killed. Having no refunds would leave players angry and frustrated, and there is no reason for it.

 

[Dark_Hamlet]

You have died, what gives you the right to magically have your things back? If the other player made a mistake he will be punished and this should be the end of the story. A vague refund opportunity will leave room for mistake, misinterpretation and enrichment of the more smart players. Without the refunds the players will become more vigilant and cautious. And the administrator chat will be possibly less attacked with "refunds" spam messages.

 

[Austro]

You have died, what gives you the right to magically have your things back? If the other player made a mistake he will be punished and this should be the end of the story. A vague refund opportunity will leave room for mistake, misinterpretation and enrichment of the more smart players. Without the refunds the players will become more vigilant and cautious. And the administrator chat will be possibly less attacked with "refunds" spam messages.

True, they have died, but in a way that the server rules state it is illegal to be killed in such a way. If you die via rule breaking, you are ALWAYS entitled to at least a fraction of what you lost. And again, not every RDM or NLR will be a " Mistake " there are plenty of trolls out there who mass RDM and mass Revenge kill, and those kinds of cases should be compensated for.


And I've already responded to this point before, but I WILL NOT change my game play style to prevent RULE BREAKERS from killing me. Why would I go out of MY way to make it so it's harder for someone to randomly approach me and kill me or kill me right after they died? That's absurd and no one should play PW in fear of being killed by a RDM'r because the server rules state it is illegal.