[DISCUSSION] PoP General Talk / Discussion
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KiriKaneko
Veteran
I don't really like to limit myself when playing though. I crank the difficulty settings up but then I'll play normally. It's not bragging if it's something that's easy and that anyone can do. I'm saying it should be harder. Literally anyone can lure these spawns and so 90% of the power curve can be reached at the very start. I know I can restrict myself, but that doesn't really change my point that it's easy, it's just saying that the game wouldn't be easy if I tied my hands in some way. I think most people don't restrict themselves when they play either so the only thing stopping people from easily beating this mod is a lack of knowledge of how best to do it, not the skill required to pull it off, and the actual process is very simple and easy to explain even to a beginner with basic warband knowledge
KiriKaneko said:
The playstyle you suggest doesn't reflect the way I play the game at all. I don't spend a lot of time kiting spawn armies around because its boring. If I see the opportunity, I'll jump in, but I mainly fight spawns myself so they are never easy. I usually never get to 30 Str/Agi/Cha in an entire playthrough and certainly not before I even start recruiting companions or building up an army. So this idea of maxing out all your gear at the beginning of the game is foreign to me. I also don't take over the entire map before doing the Snake Cult Stronghold. I usually do that while I'm a vassal with just a couple of fiefs and I can assure you that its quite a challenge at that stage of the game. Plus, you can't bring a Marshal army to the Stronghold. You have to do it yourself.
KiriKaneko
Veteran
Ok, let me try putting this another way
A game is released with a lot of depth, thousands of troops and items. There is a sword at the very start partially obscured by a bush that can kill any army in a single swing. Someone says that they found the sword and killed everything in the game easily and perhaps the sword should be harder to get.
Is this point wrong? Is it fine to just say they should exercise restraint and not pick the sword up and win when it's clearly been placed right there, it's a part of the game, the design and even the meta? Is this person bragging when they say that they won with the sword and that it was too easy and should be nerfed? And if it's the best way to victory, then what really is wrong with using the sword? If it's the best tactic then why shouldn't people use the sword? Wouldn't it be better if the sword was nerfed, removed or made much harder to obtain than simply telling people not to use the sword and insulting anyone who says that they used it?
I don't actually expect everyone to engage with these questions honestly, at least not initially. But I hope that at the very least the doubt will force some people to confront these questions directly and ask themselves just why these questions bother them so much that they need to strawman the questioner and chide them for even asking
A game is released with a lot of depth, thousands of troops and items. There is a sword at the very start partially obscured by a bush that can kill any army in a single swing. Someone says that they found the sword and killed everything in the game easily and perhaps the sword should be harder to get.
Is this point wrong? Is it fine to just say they should exercise restraint and not pick the sword up and win when it's clearly been placed right there, it's a part of the game, the design and even the meta? Is this person bragging when they say that they won with the sword and that it was too easy and should be nerfed? And if it's the best way to victory, then what really is wrong with using the sword? If it's the best tactic then why shouldn't people use the sword? Wouldn't it be better if the sword was nerfed, removed or made much harder to obtain than simply telling people not to use the sword and insulting anyone who says that they used it?
I don't actually expect everyone to engage with these questions honestly, at least not initially. But I hope that at the very least the doubt will force some people to confront these questions directly and ask themselves just why these questions bother them so much that they need to strawman the questioner and chide them for even asking
It's a single player game. It doesn't matter in the slightest if cheats are available that make the game easier. Everyone should play the game in a way that they find enjoyable. It boggles my mind that you would "spoil" that experience for yourself and then complain about it afterwards...
KarlXII said:
Oh, well I guess I'm mistaken then. I tried that once and noone followed me so I assumed that's how it was supposed to work
KiriKaneko
Veteran
Well it's not really a cheat though his it? It's a part of the game design. It's like saying chaos blade roll backstabbers in Dark Souls 1 were cheaters for using the most effective method of pvp available when there were many other inferior weapons and techniques they could have been using. Yes it was very easy, and it was very boring, and many people complained that it was easy and boring and the hardcore members of the community called them scrubs and told them to git gud. But the company listened and made changes so that backstabbing wouldn't be so easy in future games. I don't think the hardcore players were wrong to backstab, and I don't think the "scrubs" were wrong to point out that it was unbalanced. It was a part of the game by design but it was also unbalanced and it was on the company to change it in future dark souls games
Luring unique spawns into noldor and marshall armies is objectively easier and more rewarding than struggling to reach a high level and become a marshall before you start to fight them, and it's in the game, it isn't a cheat or an exploit. It's very easy yes, and that means the game is very easy. What I'm suggesting is it should be nerfed to make the game harder and to create a more even power advancement curve.
I'm not saying "look at how awesome I am for doing this"
I'm not saying "Look at this cheat I found"
And I'm not saying "This is easy and how the game should be"
I'm saying "This is easy and should probably be nerfed"
Is it easy? Yes. Is it legit? Yes. Does it throw off the balance? Yes. So rather than trying to distract by strawmanning me and saying I'm bragging or "cheating" why don't you explain why a method that's easy, legit and unbalanced shouldn't be rebalanced? I can understand if it can't be balanced but then at the very least the game should make it clear at some point that it's against the "rules" and would be patched out if it were possible, and ask the player not to do it which would be better than making it possible and easy to do and not apparently any sort of a cheat or an exploit
I mean, you can restrict yourself if you want and I'm not judging you for doing that. Just seems like you aren't addressing my arguments here.
Also not saying that it must be changed. I think it should be changed but maybe the developers like their mod to be easy which is fine too. Not all mods have to be 1257AD, Brytenwalda or Clash of Kings, easy mods are fine as well. Just putting forth my opinion that the mod would be more rewarding if this was changed so that it was harder. More rewarding for experienced players anyway, perhaps not for new players who need easy qualis gems and wouldn't want it to be changed, and might try to sabotage any conversation about nerfing unique spawn luring to protect their easy qualis gems
Luring unique spawns into noldor and marshall armies is objectively easier and more rewarding than struggling to reach a high level and become a marshall before you start to fight them, and it's in the game, it isn't a cheat or an exploit. It's very easy yes, and that means the game is very easy. What I'm suggesting is it should be nerfed to make the game harder and to create a more even power advancement curve.
I'm not saying "look at how awesome I am for doing this"
I'm not saying "Look at this cheat I found"
And I'm not saying "This is easy and how the game should be"
I'm saying "This is easy and should probably be nerfed"
Is it easy? Yes. Is it legit? Yes. Does it throw off the balance? Yes. So rather than trying to distract by strawmanning me and saying I'm bragging or "cheating" why don't you explain why a method that's easy, legit and unbalanced shouldn't be rebalanced? I can understand if it can't be balanced but then at the very least the game should make it clear at some point that it's against the "rules" and would be patched out if it were possible, and ask the player not to do it which would be better than making it possible and easy to do and not apparently any sort of a cheat or an exploit
I mean, you can restrict yourself if you want and I'm not judging you for doing that. Just seems like you aren't addressing my arguments here.
Also not saying that it must be changed. I think it should be changed but maybe the developers like their mod to be easy which is fine too. Not all mods have to be 1257AD, Brytenwalda or Clash of Kings, easy mods are fine as well. Just putting forth my opinion that the mod would be more rewarding if this was changed so that it was harder. More rewarding for experienced players anyway, perhaps not for new players who need easy qualis gems and wouldn't want it to be changed, and might try to sabotage any conversation about nerfing unique spawn luring to protect their easy qualis gems
There are plenty of not-so-perfect mechanics in the game:
- lead enemy cavalry to the edge of the battlefield,
- assign specific units to groups other than 1-4,
- join fight and if you command ally units, give them order to use blunt weapon, so they use fists and are massacred,
etc.
As it is single player game, it is up to player to use it or not. If player enjoy it, let it be.
- lead enemy cavalry to the edge of the battlefield,
- assign specific units to groups other than 1-4,
- join fight and if you command ally units, give them order to use blunt weapon, so they use fists and are massacred,
etc.
As it is single player game, it is up to player to use it or not. If player enjoy it, let it be.
KiriKaneko
Veteran
k0nr@d said:
Hahahah. I never thought of this lol. Nice. Only works armies unaligned with a major faction, or with a faction that you are a part of though, lords don't let you command them otherwise they just charge
We can agree there's nothing wrong with suggesting that something that can be patched should be patched though right?
My technical expertise isn't that great, but would it not be possible to make it so unique spawns can only be captured if the player initiates the fight? Or make it so that Finneas de Digit can only be found in the order stronghold? Or make it so the option to exchange qualis gems for stat points must be earned by conquering Pendor and is unlocked when Pendor is unified? These are just a few methods of balancing that I can think of off the top of my head
I don't know if anything can be done about the horse thing, maybe make it so AI cavalry can go through the map boundary but their AI will force them to immediately come back, this will prevent them from hitting the wall and will make them turn around and come straight back in such a way that they won't come to a dead stop. Don't know if this can be coded though, it might be in Bannerlord, maybe
Only thing I can think of with blunt weapons is make it so fists don't count as a blunt weapon so that soldiers given that order who lack blunt weapons will ignore the order. Making Noldor hold their fire in order to get an easy Ithilrandir or Aeldarian capture is probably bad too but I guess make it so that unique spawns refuse to be controlled by the player like a non-affiliated AI lord
Well, these are just a few rebalanced I can think of but I don't know how viable there are, I do know that other mods have tried to address the imbalance issues though:
Brytenwalda nerfed cavalry and missile units heavily, and AI lords heavily employ infantry. Players lose stamina fast and can suffer delibitating wounds which encourages the player not to just wear heavy armor and take injuries in every fight to get a ton of kills but rely on their troops a lot more. Most mods ensure that all bandits have some form of viable ranged weapon or throwing weapon, I've played a few like Warsword Conquest, Blood in the West and Prophesy of Pendor where there are easily available bandits that give lots of exp, cash and renown but lack decent ranged weapons and are thus very easy. ACOK goes a step farther and removes the luggage box from the battlefield so no endless supply of arrows, and makes it so that lances break quickly and most bows cant be used while mounted. They're not perfect and even the hardest mods I have played have had some way to heavily tip the balance in the player's favor, and I approach them like a puzzle to solve by working out how to break it. But if no one pointed it out then it could never be balanced unless the dev worked it out themselves. Heck I've been playing more than 1000 hours and I never thought to cripple ally lords by ordering them to use blunt weapons, and I might never have known if you hadn't told me XD
KiriKaneko
Veteran
Finally finished up my playthrough. United Pendor, destroyed the minor factions and armies, married my elf assassin, I might start a war with the Noldor just as a victory party but I consider my playthrough complete
Thanks to the developers for a great mod. I think there are some balancing issues but overall this is one of the better mods I've played. Looking forward to 4.0, which I assume will be Bannerlord or something. Bai!
Thanks to the developers for a great mod. I think there are some balancing issues but overall this is one of the better mods I've played. Looking forward to 4.0, which I assume will be Bannerlord or something. Bai!
"For all accounts, this is not a primary source. All accounts of this collaboration of information and story is brought in my rumor and talk. What you believe in is up to you."
"These brave souls venture forth on the rough sea, a test, to their prowess and to their beliefs. Many call these cultists crazy, but they do not care for what others think. They care for 'it.'
They search for what I essentially consider a myth. But what is a myth if not a recollection of something one or many have seen? These men and women do not care, for they know what is real and what is not. They know what they seek and that is why they hunt. If one is to call it hunting.
The seas are a vast, unforgiving place. As deadly as the things it is said to hide. But these men and women choose to be out there rather than squabbling with petty instances created from Jarls or other orders.
But the question remains, why search for 'it?' What happens if it is real? Dragons were real, why can't these be? What happens when one or many encounter such a thing or things?
Maybe it is worth joining to find out, but I prefer the land. Theres already enough strife here, we don't need to stoke the fire out on the high seas."
--Scholar [worn out name] of Poinsbruk
--Section 4: Page 13 of "The Great [worn out title] of Pendor
"These brave souls venture forth on the rough sea, a test, to their prowess and to their beliefs. Many call these cultists crazy, but they do not care for what others think. They care for 'it.'
They search for what I essentially consider a myth. But what is a myth if not a recollection of something one or many have seen? These men and women do not care, for they know what is real and what is not. They know what they seek and that is why they hunt. If one is to call it hunting.
The seas are a vast, unforgiving place. As deadly as the things it is said to hide. But these men and women choose to be out there rather than squabbling with petty instances created from Jarls or other orders.
But the question remains, why search for 'it?' What happens if it is real? Dragons were real, why can't these be? What happens when one or many encounter such a thing or things?
Maybe it is worth joining to find out, but I prefer the land. Theres already enough strife here, we don't need to stoke the fire out on the high seas."
--Scholar [worn out name] of Poinsbruk
--Section 4: Page 13 of "The Great [worn out title] of Pendor
Both Poinsbruk and Janos have the lore for scholars, maybe that's why Ravenstern and empire has more advanced army. 
Came back after a long time to see how everything's changed, really happy so far! 
Aetavicus
Squire
Is there any use to using horse archers in this mod besides flavor? They seem to be using the default native AI as they are very likely go into melee and suicide if they charge.
Furthermore, I tried the circling around enemy counter-clockwise strategy but it doesn't seem to be very effective at all with them hardly getting any kills.
I feel like getting more standard infantry/archers/cavalry would be more cost-effective.
Furthermore, I tried the circling around enemy counter-clockwise strategy but it doesn't seem to be very effective at all with them hardly getting any kills.
I feel like getting more standard infantry/archers/cavalry would be more cost-effective.
They are useful against enemy knights as they tend to be pretty fast and distract them.
Other than that they are not the best units to have.
They are really good if they are high level ones like Order of the Clarion Call, or Doomguides, or Adventurers.
They stay away so are more likely to survive battles then also have great melee capabilities when they use all of their ammo up.
Cheaper ones tend to be better if you just spam a whole load of them as they can destroy inf armies with minimal losses.
They are decent in all cav forces.
If you are going with standard setups then no they are not going to be that useful other than as a way to distract better troops.
Their AI will be random as some will charge in and die, while others will shoot from distance. They do tend to run off after charging in though, so that is not always the worst thing.
If you want a demonstration of their capabilities en-mass then go into D'shar territory with a decent force and fight a stack of Singalian slavers.
Other than that they are not the best units to have.
They are really good if they are high level ones like Order of the Clarion Call, or Doomguides, or Adventurers.
They stay away so are more likely to survive battles then also have great melee capabilities when they use all of their ammo up.
Cheaper ones tend to be better if you just spam a whole load of them as they can destroy inf armies with minimal losses.
They are decent in all cav forces.
If you are going with standard setups then no they are not going to be that useful other than as a way to distract better troops.
Their AI will be random as some will charge in and die, while others will shoot from distance. They do tend to run off after charging in though, so that is not always the worst thing.
If you want a demonstration of their capabilities en-mass then go into D'shar territory with a decent force and fight a stack of Singalian slavers.
