Spears are weird in this, one of the most used and most effective weapons in history is kinda meh, the Triarii wall is alright but not at all what you would expect from a shield and spear unit. In close range its alright, if your skills are good you can strike a few times before a battle line is formed, in 1v1s, like tournaments, its easy enough to mess with the AI and shield bash or kick and get 2 hits off, but it feels like its missing something, like its to easy to block, or damage isnt enough on foot. Something, just wondering is it only me?
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Discussion Infantry Spears - how to make better
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I think range of the movement where spear hit is the most effective is too narrow. Trust is not a swing, it does not rely so much on inertia and it should do max damage or close much earlier in the trust movement.
Viking Conquest did spears well. Not sure how exactly they did it.
Viking Conquest did spears well. Not sure how exactly they did it.
Spears should let you thrust while holding block to to give the best defense/attack ability. While if you clicked attack without hold block, it should be a more staggering spear thrust. Right now, spears aren't very good weapons unless you're on horse back and using the horses momentum to do any really damage.
Yeah. the problem with spears right now is that they only do good damage during a small window after the initial push of the spear or the thrust; spears should do good damage from the beginning of the warm up to the end of the thrust; if i have a sharp pointy object and i stick it in your gut, it's gonna hurt if i just keep on pushing it further.
I made several observations about pointy pole arms. I would also categorise them in as: general; infantry vs infantry; infantry vs archers; infantry vs cavalry; infantry versus horse archers; I will also provide useful links every time I would like to use a reference.
General:
- Infantry with spears should have their own section by default because this is the de facto infantry back in the era that Bannerlord is loosely based upon and it goes way further until guns dominated the battlefields.
- Spears should be, and are, easily blocked with any type of a shield but spearman should have the ability to easily attack behind their shields. 1*
- Spears should stop an attacker in place by default because they are long sticks you can just hold your enemy with at a distance.
- Pole arms in general are SUPERIOR to any other melee weapon (with exceptions). 2 *
Infantry vs Infantry:
My general feeling about this section: it is nicely balanced for now BUT i feel it would change whenever the developers would like to make the spear a more important weapon the battlefield.
Infantry vs Archers:
- Archers are a powerful counter against infantry in general so I think it is okay.
- EVERY SINGLE FOOT SOLDIER SHOULD HAVE A SHIELD. Even few broken planks held together with a rope is a far superior option in a battle that no shield at all. Even recruits should have them. 3 *
Infantry vs Cavalry:
- Infantry with spears should be able to counter charging light cavalry much better.
- Pikes should be MUCH longer. 4 *
Infantry vs Horse Archers:
Infantry dies easily against Horse Archers. Which is balanced, as all things should be. Khuzait will dominate you on the battlefield but when it comes to sieges, well - they are not as powerful. When you finally get to them with your ladders, siege towers and rams, break into their cities and castles, they deliver little to none resistance against other units. This is why it's better to stay behind your walls' battlements and slaughter them when they finally come to you.
In general, there is much work to be done, either by modders or TaleWorlds itself.
Nonetheless, i love the game.
1. One such organisational unit was the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx
2. Spear vs Sword by Matt Easton:
3. There is a mod for that but in my opinion it would really upgrade the experience for the base game.
4. There are multiple historical sources for that:
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
General:
- Infantry with spears should have their own section by default because this is the de facto infantry back in the era that Bannerlord is loosely based upon and it goes way further until guns dominated the battlefields.
- Spears should be, and are, easily blocked with any type of a shield but spearman should have the ability to easily attack behind their shields. 1*
- Spears should stop an attacker in place by default because they are long sticks you can just hold your enemy with at a distance.
- Pole arms in general are SUPERIOR to any other melee weapon (with exceptions). 2 *
Infantry vs Infantry:
My general feeling about this section: it is nicely balanced for now BUT i feel it would change whenever the developers would like to make the spear a more important weapon the battlefield.
Infantry vs Archers:
- Archers are a powerful counter against infantry in general so I think it is okay.
- EVERY SINGLE FOOT SOLDIER SHOULD HAVE A SHIELD. Even few broken planks held together with a rope is a far superior option in a battle that no shield at all. Even recruits should have them. 3 *
Infantry vs Cavalry:
- Infantry with spears should be able to counter charging light cavalry much better.
- Pikes should be MUCH longer. 4 *
Infantry vs Horse Archers:
Infantry dies easily against Horse Archers. Which is balanced, as all things should be. Khuzait will dominate you on the battlefield but when it comes to sieges, well - they are not as powerful. When you finally get to them with your ladders, siege towers and rams, break into their cities and castles, they deliver little to none resistance against other units. This is why it's better to stay behind your walls' battlements and slaughter them when they finally come to you.
In general, there is much work to be done, either by modders or TaleWorlds itself.
Nonetheless, i love the game.
1. One such organisational unit was the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx
2. Spear vs Sword by Matt Easton:
3. There is a mod for that but in my opinion it would really upgrade the experience for the base game.
4. There are multiple historical sources for that:
Sarissa - Wikipedia
Pike (weapon) - Wikipedia
I think spears should just have a lot higher handling value, and a bit higher damage. Also when the spear is used with 2hands it should have infinite handling value (if that is possible) and even more damage
Hitting someone in the face with a spear on someone not having armor on their head should be instakill.
Hitting someone in the face with a spear on someone not having armor on their head should be instakill.
I made several observations about pointy pole arms. I would also categorise them in as: general; infantry vs infantry; infantry vs archers; infantry vs cavalry; infantry versus horse archers; I will also provide useful links every time I would like to use a reference.
General:
- Infantry with spears should have their own section by default because this is the de facto infantry back in the era that Bannerlord is loosely based upon and it goes way further until guns dominated the battlefields.
- Spears should be, and are, easily blocked with any type of a shield but spearman should have the ability to easily attack behind their shields. 1*
- Spears should stop an attacker in place by default because they are long sticks you can just hold your enemy with at a distance.
- Pole arms in general are SUPERIOR to any other melee weapon (with exceptions). 2 *
Infantry vs Infantry:
My general feeling about this section: it is nicely balanced for now BUT i feel it would change whenever the developers would like to make the spear a more important weapon the battlefield.
Infantry vs Archers:
- Archers are a powerful counter against infantry in general so I think it is okay.
- EVERY SINGLE FOOT SOLDIER SHOULD HAVE A SHIELD. Even few broken planks held together with a rope is a far superior option in a battle that no shield at all. Even recruits should have them. 3 *
Infantry vs Cavalry:
- Infantry with spears should be able to counter charging light cavalry much better.
- Pikes should be MUCH longer. 4 *
Infantry vs Horse Archers:
Infantry dies easily against Horse Archers. Which is balanced, as all things should be. Khuzait will dominate you on the battlefield but when it comes to sieges, well - they are not as powerful. When you finally get to them with your ladders, siege towers and rams, break into their cities and castles, they deliver little to none resistance against other units. This is why it's better to stay behind your walls' battlements and slaughter them when they finally come to you.
In general, there is much work to be done, either by modders or TaleWorlds itself.
Nonetheless, i love the game.
1. One such organisational unit was the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx
2. Spear vs Sword by Matt Easton:
3. There is a mod for that but in my opinion it would really upgrade the experience for the base game.
4. There are multiple historical sources for that:
Sarissa - Wikipedia
Pike (weapon) - Wikipedia
Well thought out and well said, I gotta say i agree with spears having their own formation like the shield wall. Pike wall, Phalanx, so on. Getting to block and attack would be perfect for the spear, because you can still close the gap as a swordsman, and **** a persons day up. Maybe have a block and attack where the spear has a slower more inaccurate thrust and unblocked attacks can be trusted in rapid succession.
And honestly i like the fact that some inf dont have shields, really shows that they are poor or a specialized unit. Its like the skirmishers that Julius Caesar brought with him on his campaign to Gaul.
There are no special formations for different weapons from the game mechanics point of view. It's only about how far-close individual soldiers stand. Sure, in a shieldwall as is implemented in the game, soldiers will hold up their shields instead of periodically dropping them down just to get a arrow in to the face. But I suspect that's the way how devs made ranged units able to do some damage to shielded units. In other words, they did AI intentionally stupid.
Anything you do to make spears more effective in the game, it have to be fairly simple from the game mechanic point of view, otherwise it will be difficult to implement properly and AI will probably not be able to use it.
As I said before, Viking Conquest made spears much more effective weapon in the close melee combat and it did so without inventing new game mechanic, they just tweaked out existing mechanic in place. How they did it I am not sure but I ques it was done by making spear do have lower penalty from a close range -meaning they made spear to loose less damage even when one the beginning of the trust movement. May be there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Another thing of course is that Vanilla and Warband and all it's offshoots like VC did not count for friendly collision and soldiers could attack and stab through friendly units. That made spears very potent in mass fights, because they were able to attack from behind other soldiers.
One simple thing that I was thinking could improve spear effectiveness and would reflect it's real word characteristics might be to make enemy stop movement if defending against spear trust (blocking), or being hit by the spear trust. Sort of like when spear trusts stop horses, but extended to blocking as well and without "rearing animation". Just stopping enemy movement and forcing him to defend. Or may be even step back a little. That would mimic reach advantage of the spear in the real life, when it's difficult to close in against spearman. Units with shields might get exception.
Soulcharger
Recruit
There is already an entire thread that talked this too death. Before asking for better handling, better damage, or any improvements to the spear, I strongly advise you play the game with only spear and shield. You will find quickly that you do not favor 1h or 2h weapons, shoot even at times archery. Damage is great when you learn to aim.
Short demo video of a guy that was literately born yesterday as a spear users. He was already injured as i did not spawn with a shield and spear and had to obtain one before shooting the video. Notice the attack speed is not bad at all, also i can hold the spear ready to attack and just release and it does same damage just starting extension as full extension. One real change in damage is my physical movement speed.
Now when you get a spear that is not base 24 damage but 42, with 100+ in pole arms, with 80-100 athletics, you will do crazy damage per attack with ease. When i score another 200+ damage headshot I will screen shot it for you guys as it is pretty cool to be on foot pulling off that kind of damage with a weapon that only has 42 base damage.
Now formations and AI....
This right here is the failure of spears. The AI are trash. And yes they need their own formation and scripted AI that is a spear man first swordsmen second.
For all the videos about Sword Vs Spear, Keep in mind most are sword vs spear not including shields. Most the videos come into the argument already with minds made up, and single combat is situational and hence why even phalanx carried swords. Spears in formation requires much less training then spears in single combat. In single combat against a sword user (assuming shields are at play as otherwise the spear would be go to) the spear user must be alot better trained as they need really good foot work, and be able to out dance their opponents.
Short demo video of a guy that was literately born yesterday as a spear users. He was already injured as i did not spawn with a shield and spear and had to obtain one before shooting the video. Notice the attack speed is not bad at all, also i can hold the spear ready to attack and just release and it does same damage just starting extension as full extension. One real change in damage is my physical movement speed.
Now when you get a spear that is not base 24 damage but 42, with 100+ in pole arms, with 80-100 athletics, you will do crazy damage per attack with ease. When i score another 200+ damage headshot I will screen shot it for you guys as it is pretty cool to be on foot pulling off that kind of damage with a weapon that only has 42 base damage.
Now formations and AI....
This right here is the failure of spears. The AI are trash. And yes they need their own formation and scripted AI that is a spear man first swordsmen second.
For all the videos about Sword Vs Spear, Keep in mind most are sword vs spear not including shields. Most the videos come into the argument already with minds made up, and single combat is situational and hence why even phalanx carried swords. Spears in formation requires much less training then spears in single combat. In single combat against a sword user (assuming shields are at play as otherwise the spear would be go to) the spear user must be alot better trained as they need really good foot work, and be able to out dance their opponents.
I did guy, and like i said before spears are alright, they kill and poke and stab really well, I currently play a character who is sword, shield, lance, jav, but it feels meh, kinda ****, a formation like the couch lance but for a full pike wall would be a cool idea, deploy the pike wall to stop charges an the like, would be nice for a left and right attack too. And make it have more umpf when it hits.
Honestly, in my experience so far, cavalry has no fear and just slides like a mountain through my infantry. I do not even bother with spear infantry because they get scattered by cavalry and then mopped up by enemy infantry or archer units. So my basic setup for my soldiery stands as: heavy melee infantry (mix between shield and berserk units), archers dominating the majority, with cavalry as a screen or diversion. Much like how I played back in Warband. I really wanted to see spear infantry do their job, especially because I have been played Rome II: Total War, and just watching cavalry get obliterated is both immersive and rewarding. I am not trying to necessarily compare the two games, but in this instance I was hoping for better. Using spears for my character is certainly a lot better than in Warband, and I am footslogger, so that is a nice upgrade from the previous titles. However, I am no Greek hero, so I rely heavily on Javees&Shield, and then 2hander in the crush of melee.
The problem is the game only allow spear to thrusting while spear should can swinging and strike from above too.
I think your point about the effective range is spot on. Once your enemy closes in beyond that point you're better off using your fists. Its kinda ridiculous that your character continues to hold the spear 5 feet down the shaft when the enemy is rubbing his face on you.
Another thing is that thrown javelins does 3x the damage than a two handed spear with a full body thrust when they're essentially smaller lighter spears. Im not saying that infantry spears need to hit even harder but its really hard to justify their use when they're so niche and otherwise unwieldy.
To really make spear infantry and spear walls live up to their real life counterparts some new mechanisms will need to be worked out. The AI has no fear and just doesnt care about walking into spears. Thrust attacks are just as easy to block as an overhead swing when they are clearly not, etc etc.
Phalanx had carried swords because spears break. Or can be thrown at the enemy. Sword was a side arm that could be carried on a soldier without impairing his other actions heavily. You can't really carry spare spear and be able to fight well (unless you are playing a game that is
). And in the combat of a swords against the spears, it's actually swords that needs to "outdance" and "out-foot-work" the spear, since spears have range advantage and swords have to close in without getting hit. See the video: Spears are better than swords (longer version)Have you seen the video I posted? Because it states EXACTLY what you said.
But as someone posted, the swordsman has to outdance the spearman because the spearman has more reach and to negate that, you have to be able to outsmart him.One question: Have you ever been to an early medieval period reenactment? If not, I would highly advise going to see such an event because:
1) It's great fun
2) It will help you visualise how they fought
I would also encourage you to get a spear and a sword in your hands with and without a shield so you can get a grip on how it works.
Nonetheless, I think we agree that AI is the most problematic here.
Soulcharger
Recruit
I have done mock fights with imitation weaponry hence I know first hand the pros and cons. I also do alot of reading on historical uses not youtube as i dislike the biased influence alot of videos have. I
Will 9/10 favor my spear shield and short sword. Even acknowledging that an equal skilled opponent can overpower with sword shield. Without shield spear every time.
Will 9/10 favor my spear shield and short sword. Even acknowledging that an equal skilled opponent can overpower with sword shield. Without shield spear every time.
Imitation weaponry? What do you mean?
In what scenario?
Okay, that's just an opinion on the source - which is understandable but not sufficient enough to give proper judgement. From what I see, Matt Easton and Nikolas Lloyd do a lot of real life reenactment, especially Lloyd who also fought in skirmish scenarios. Again, groups of spearmen are the main topic of this talk.
