Discussion about historical accuracy of.... everything! in 1257ad

[Joker86]

Hi there!

I wanted to start a topic where you can discuss everything which is unclear of fitting into the year 1257 or not.

To make the start I want to ask for "Ailettes", which in my sources were worn in the middle of the 13th century. This would by a possibility to make the western armours look a bit more differently, instead of all those same looking mails with tabard.

Edit: on this picture in Wikipedia they are shown as lying on the shoulders, but I have also seen many pictures where they are "standing" vertically more on the top of the arm then on the shoulder itself... you know what I mean, don't force me to scan a picture from my books 

Edit2: just remembered: most of you may have seen something like that before, at William de Monderrat from Assassin's Creed (Yes, I know    )

I would like to see them implemented, though I know no new items are gonna be added for now 

I will add a few other things these days, and perhaps the devs can be convinced to increase the variety in their mod 

 

[DrTomas]

To make the start I want to ask for "Ailettes", which in my sources were worn in the middle of the 13th century. This would by a possibility to make the western armours look a bit more differently, instead of all those same looking mails with tabard.

Can you elaborate more on that? As far as iconography, they seem to apear only in 1280-1290(like here).
And they don't seem to be very popular yet(based that only one knight have them).

 

[kuauik]

thats end of the 13th century,so not in our time period,they were mostly depicted with sugorloaf helmet,also i want to make this statement:1257 ad is not strictly historical mod,like europe 1200,its more "lets have a fun"mod and thats exactly why is so popular,the combat system is best i ever played,this is why i can never enjoy Europe 1200,although i love the amount of lords and towns ,its lack any atmosphere

 

[Lavandina]

Why Is not anaking skywalker in this "for fun game"?? The force and light sabers will make this game so cool, as is the adition of Neanderthals. Of course there is not need to say that Neanderthals ride in wargos.

 

[kuauik]

Why Is not anaking skywalker in this "for fun game"?? The force and light sabers will make this game so cool, as is the adition of Neanderthals. Of course there is not need to say that Neanderthals ride in wargos.

that was joke or what?if not then its not funny

 

[Arrakhis]

Why Is not anaking skywalker in this "for fun game"?? The force and light sabers will make this game so cool, as is the adition of Neanderthals. Of course there is not need to say that Neanderthals ride in wargos.

that was joke or what?if not then its not funny

How about headless horseman like my character  I hope next SVN make my character headless again 

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

To make the start I want to ask for "Ailettes", which in my sources were worn in the middle of the 13th century. This would by a possibility to make the western armours look a bit more differently, instead of all those same looking mails with tabard.

Having examined the Maciejowski Bible backwards and forwards a few times, I saw no evidence of ailettes being worn by knights. 

I was going to include them in my mod, being that they were certainly around in the early 14th century, as evident in the Codex Manesse (or Große Heidelberger Liederhandschrift), which dates around 1304-1340.  But, it does not seem to be the case that they were worn at this time in 1257. 

As far as where they sat, I see mainly differing theories (which gave me a lot of trouble).  Some Osprey sources have them sit on the shoulders, whereas other Osprey sources have them stand vertically.  Most historical sources have them stand vertically.  Which is the case?  I wish I knew, but it'd be nice to finally have some consensus on it. 

 

[othr]

To lock or not to lock, that is the question

 

[Lavandina]

To lock or not to lock, that is the question

Do you want to control the situation or you want this place to become, an abstract "lounge" seccion of the forum?
Its your call, I will not stop.. LOL.

 

[Joker86]

Othr seems really to be on a close-spree 

Why closing? It's not a "please implement" thread, as I know no new items will be added (at least no "unimportant" ones). Also it's not a "Balkan people are the best" thread. It's in fact for checking facts and comparing sources.

Concerning the Ailettes: I have a book where there is only mentioned they would have been used from mid 13th to beginning 14th century. And the German version of the Wikipedia site says from 1250-1310 instead of 1290-1325 

It's also said those haven't had that much the purpose of protection, more of making the knights recognize each others, due to the popular full helmets at that time. Their usage was limited on France and the area around the Rhine of the HRE (The Germans called them "Achselschilde", which means - you probably guessed it - axel shields). The oldest known picture was from 1274 from an old French grail novel. There were also round and oval Ailettes, and on one bronze relief in the Metropolitan Museum there is even a picture of Aliette-alike knee protectors 


There is one statement in this topic which changes everything for me:

1257 ad is not strictly historical mod,like europe 1200,its more "lets have a fun"mod and thats exactly why is so popular

This goes against everything which I experienced with 1257ad before. Against "Miles", against Gregorian choirs, against all rejected suggestions due to anachronism, against everything! 

 

[Barry_bon_Loyale]

It's also said those haven't had that much the purpose of protection, more of making the knights recognize each others, due to the popular full helmets at that time.

I've read that - I'm not sure of that statement's accuracy though.  The protection would be there, and the shoulder is indeed one area you would want to keep very protected.  Also, given that the design on the ailettes would match the design on the tunic, the tunic itself would be a dead giveaway as to who they are.  The fact the ailettes matched would be for ceremonial reasons, but you should be able to identify the knight by the large tunic he's wearing, not the shoulder pad bearing the same design.  That's like having a Union Jack pin on a redcoat's uniform - we already know who you are. 

Their usage was limited on France and the area around the Rhine of the HRE

Doesn't seem to be the case according to Osprey - English knights used them as well:

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Based on its usage by the English as well, I'd guess that they were a popular part of any wealthy-enough knight's equipment, until of course it was replaced by technologically superior equipment.

Also, notice above that there are the two differing theories of ailettes, or how they sit.  One is standing vertical, the other, pressed against the shoulders.  Maybe it's the way the arms themselves are positioned? 

But yes, they seem to be in use in the late 1270's, and as you pointed out, 1274.  However, this mod does take place in 1257, thusly, they'd probably be inappropriate.

 

[MariusThePaladin]

1257 ad is not strictly historical mod,like europe 1200,its more "lets have a fun"mod and thats exactly why is so popular

You must be kidding. 

 

[othr]

The mod is historically accurate, more or less.  The level of detail is different, after all it's only a game, and a game that only does combat well.  Packing the map with factions and settlements doesn't add much, in my opinion.

 

[othr]

The Kingdom was part of the Holy Roman Empire until its dissolution in 1806, whereupon it became part of the Austrian Empire, and subsequently the Austro-Hungarian Empire from 1867.  Blah blah blah blah.

Right where it belongs, isn't it the HRE that gave it its 30, or so, years of glory?  So how do I add this kingdom that would be a pushover without the support of the HRE, hmm?  Careful, I may just give you what you're asking for 

****er, removed his post while I was typing mine.

 

[kuauik]

but what about the mongulu,pretty please

 

[Lavandina]

but what about the mongulu,pretty please

Mongulu will lose is impact if you use it in such an indiscriminate way.

 

[Joker86]

It's funny. Since I started the discussion about ailets I pay attention to the pictures in the books more. Here is what I found:

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"King Ludwig's IX. army from France conquers Damietta in 1249. The city almost didn't put up any resistance at all; Ludwig's son lost it again, after being taken prisoner together with his entire army."

 

[kuauik]

It's funny. Since I started the discussion about ailets I pay attention to the pictures in the books more. Here is what I found:

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"King Ludwig's IX. army from France conquers Damietta in 1249. The city almost didn't put up any resistance at all; Ludwig's son lost it again, after being taken prisoner together with his entire army."

thats weird,but the picture must be from later period and the artist can portraied the knights as he seen them,i recogize Jean de Joinville on that picture

 

[DrTomas]

Becouse some monk from XIV century decided to paint events of 1249. There's something that seems like a sugarloaf, not to mention a great extent of early bascinets in that picture...

 

[Joker86]

Becouse some monk from XIV century decided to paint events of 1249. There's something that seems like a sugarloaf, not to mention a great extent of early bascinets in that picture...

Yeah, I also expected it to be from the 14th century. I was more aiming at the statement that those things were rather seldom. In fact you see them regularly, it seems to me