Discussion about cavalry balance and knock downs

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OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
It's a huge deal for competative play.
It's too early to expect something like this. BUT
- In a competative game team damage should be 100% and there SHOULD be a gamemod called maybe "Competative Skirmish" with that kind of stuff maybe more but no need to complicate this.

I don't think you should have team damage on bumps in competitive either.
 
How about giving us hooked spears, that can dismount rider?
This is not necessary. If the rider is dead then there is no point in dismounting.

Just make spear into a realistic weapon, and suddenly you have insta-kill horse, or rider, depending on who you hit. The spear is the best weapon in the world, and was only phased out when semi-automatic firearms were introduced.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
Team damage (and bumps) can annoy but are needed for a healthy combat. I believe that most players understood by now that team damage makes the game better, even though it sounds counter intuitive.

I'm not arguing about no team damage, I'm arguing about specifically team damage from horse bumps and the ability to knockdown team mates with cavalry. Cav's role is to go fast into the melee and will inevitably end up touching team mates (especially considering how small the capsules around players are which allow people to get extremely close). This will especially be the case if BL keeps how cav move players around in a frustrating fashion.

It's very common for games to have slightly different rules for how you interact with the team versus how you interact with the enemy e.g. less damage etc. This is to strike a balance between competitivity and enjoyment. Adding the ability to team bump and team knockdown does nerf cav (massively), but it also adds frustration and more chaos in a game already with hectic groupfights. There are other ways to nerf.
 
Don't make team damage from horse bumps this thing will annoy too many people first,secondly the horse perks will die,nobody wants his teammates on ground.Also it will indirectly nerf the bumphits etc.Cavalry will come slow to the fights,and your horse can get 2 hits from a xbow or a throwing spear.You need to change the rearing from spear from an infantry from the behind.You nerfed cavalry already,infantries can spawn twice as heavy at second round,but cavalries can't.If you are dismounted as cavalry you can't do anything on ground(low running speed - bad swords/axes against infantry).And cavalries mostly play light cavalry and they are easy to dismount.

Let's say you picked light cavalry at start and lose every round.You will spawn 5 light cavalry,1 heavy cavalry.If you win every round,you can spawn 4 light cavalry 2 heavy cavalry.

Now lets start with heavy cavalry.1 heavy cavalry,1 peasant.If you lose on vlandia you can get max 20 gold,in khuzait you will have 10gold,other factions 0 gold extra.That's not a recommended set-up since it's a huge risk.You can do 3 heavy cavalries 3 peasants like that.Cavalries could spawn 5 times as heavy cavalry back in the day,you nerfed it already.Also i see mounted infantries can't ride horse fast with this patch,this is a nice addition.

Battanian and Aserai light cavalries are the best ones,because of the Charge amount and the armor on Battanian,Charge amount and HP on Aserai horses.Also 3 spawns can be done with 380gold.I suggest you change only those light cavalries,balance with others.Other than that,i think cavalry is balanced.You may consider slowing down the cavalry going up the hill but it's nothing with balancing its just about reality.

You can also nerf the Spear/lance damage.It looks like you buffed it.

And cavalries will mostly top scoring,it was same as in Warband..It's because of their mobility and fighting style.
 
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Cav is in the best spot they have ever been. They decide about the outcome of nearly all random skirmishes and they decide most competitive matches.
 
I don't think you need to add team damage to bumps, this is a recipe for chaos in groupfights and will be extremely annoying. The movement of people when getting pushed by cav, but not bumped, just needs toned down. It's a total mess and is an indirect buff to cav since they are not hindered by foottroops

It's a huge deal for competative play.
It's too early to expect something like this. BUT
- In a competative game team damage should be 100% and there SHOULD be a gamemod called maybe "Competative Skirmish" with that kind of stuff maybe more but no need to complicate this.

- Then you can have norma/casual Skirmish mode that has less team damage ( Like the Skirmish we have now).

Right now there is a big mess because of Singleplayer +Captain mode +Skirmish mode +Siege are all being treated as one thing ( With exact same unit roosters and gear and PRICES).
They all function very differently and should have different mechanics. Period.

-Untill this seperation comes into play there will always be some gamemode that suffers greatly with the current state of gameplay mechanics.
 

Mabons

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
With how wonky bumps and knockdowns are right now I would be 100% against friendly cav knocking you over. Especially in random pub skirmish. Not that it matters I barely touch pub skirmish queue anymore, since the latest patch it's an absolute cav spam nightmare and I wonder why cav was buffed in the same patch that archery and infantry had their ability to deal with them removed, when cav where in a decent enough place as it is.
 

LANDALORE

Regular
If you wanna buff spear inf, add an extra 20% damage to any rider or horse that got reared, it should only apply while the horse is reared, that way inf and archers should have an easier time killing stopped cav, and it punishes overagressive cav play.
 

soul_jak

Sergeant
i would like to see knock downtimes reduced and knockdown or at least bumps be applied to both friendly and opponent teams but i could see the friendly knockdowns as being annoying af too
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
Regarding the prospective implementation of friendly fire on bumping and knowndowns, there are various scenarios that we can make up:

The first scenario is that we indeed implement friendly fire on bumps. We first do so in the according beta version specifically designed to pre-test similar gameplay mechanics. This way I see it, there are two ways this can end up. On one hand this might result in people being pissed off by teammates not playing cautiously and the other scenario is that cavalry players start paying more attention to their movement which will result in a better overall experience. Just like Aprikosenmann said, it sounds counterintuitive, but it will improve the overall health of the gameplay mechanics.

The second scenario is where we consider implementing this for particular gamemodes only. For example, the community could decide that these friendly bumps should happen only in competitive mode because people in public games are simply not ready for these mechanics. I mean I personally dislike having different settings for different modes because its just very inconsistent and people who regularly switch modes might lose track of whats going on and what they should prepare for in split-second decision making.

So, the question is as follows, is the community open for / willing to try this mechanic in a closed beta version first to see how it goes?

I think its a good choice so I vote for this.
 

Dextrus

Sergeant
Friendly bump dmg sounds chaotic. Just decrease the time an inf lays in the ground after behind hit.

Make the horses more vulnerable to being killed when going really slow around infantry (no idea how to implement this) and maybe decrease the max speed on a couch lance.

Other than that we could still work on the being pushed around by Cav plus the weird animations and hit boxes for spears on horse back.
 

Forsee

Regular
I like an idea of giving the cav only 1 spawn.
Make heavy cav cost ~320, so the rider can only spawn with it once and not on the first round
Make light cav cost ~200 so the rider can spawn inf after he dies as cav
Buff heavy cav a bit to make it worth spawning
Thus the cav would be high risk - high reward
Just a suggestion
 

Mabons

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I like an idea of giving the cav only 1 spawn.
Make heavy cav cost ~320, so the rider can only spawn with it once and not on the first round
Make light cav cost ~200 so the rider can spawn inf after he dies as cav
Buff heavy cav a bit to make it worth spawning
Thus the cav would be high risk - high reward
Just a suggestion

I like an idea of giving the archer only 1 spawn.
Make heavy archer cost ~320, so the player can only spawn with it once and not on the first round
Make light archer cost ~200 so the player can spawn inf after he dies as archer
Buff heavy archer a bit to make it worth spawning
Thus the archer would be high risk - reward
Just a suggestion
 

Forsee

Regular
I like an idea of giving the archer only 1 spawn.
Make heavy archer cost ~320, so the player can only spawn with it once and not on the first round
Make light archer cost ~200 so the player can spawn inf after he dies as archer
Buff heavy archer a bit to make it worth spawning
Thus the archer would be high risk - reward
Just a suggestion
Wrong thread
This might work too, cause archers are not typically dying alot, but it will be a bad thing for infantry, archers are typically do most of their impact on their first spawn, so that 1spawn will not hurt them alot, but that heavy arch buff is gonna be bad for inf players. Beside that I like an idea of buffing heavy archers cause that's my favorite class
I also like an idea of giving each class only 1 spawn
 

Einarcf

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
What if riders got dismounted after the horse both rears and it takes dmg over a certain threshold?
 

Pajikoman

Regular
Team damage (and bumps) can annoy but are needed for a healthy combat. I believe that most players understood by now that team damage makes the game better, even though it sounds counter intuitive.
Team bumbs in competetive? Ye sure, we can try it. It can be interesting feature in competetive mode. Team bumbs in random games? NO. Because that would be mess nothing more. I really dont see healthy combat in that. I actually cant see healthy combat in any changes for cavs or for archers, because main problem is in meele combat which is really bad and boring. These changes can slighly change it but not much.
 

Forsee

Regular
What if riders got dismounted after the horse both rears and it takes dmg over a certain threshold?
Heavy horses are too fragile, they are not taking reasonable damage from inf even when it's reared and inf can hardly reach that threshold. I think it is better to lower the horse's survivability somehow.

IMO team bumps will make the game more chaotic for infantry, and that will be a side buff for the cav. Chaotic fights are always better for cav cause inf can't hold the formation, stick together near the spear and cover each other's back. RN it it annoying that friendly cav can push you through the fight for like 3 meters, and that happens everytime. It also breaks our formations and makes the fight more chaotic, placing a cav in a superior spot. I think teammate's hitboxes should work as static objects for the cav. Horses should stop whenever it runs over the teammate, and that teammate should not get pushed away.
 

Etonviper

Recruit
I think a eco rework in this game will fix a lot of balance issues including cav. Look at any comp shooter and look how the eco works in that game. CSGOs and valorant both have you starting out with nothing and depending how you do in the first round reflects on to the next round. Maybe for bannerlord you should have some upper tier classes blocked off in the first round. This will allow for factions with stronger light inf/cav to receive a indirect buff while having the heavy hitting factions to have more of a late game presence. Cav does work better in captains from the buff but in skirmish its pretty broken. So attacking a different aspect of the game is what I think will work to balance them. Not sure how the eco would be perfected but a quick idea is
Starting Gold/gold auto gained per round: 150
Gold gained per kill: 10
Gold gained per assist: 5
Gold gained for neutral point cap: 10
Gold gained for round won: 20

Maybe even add a system where if you kill someone that's shredding kids you get extra gold towards your team
Obviously troop prices would have to probably be adjusted including your max gold but this will add more.
This is an idea lmk what you think and how this would effect cav balance (inf needs a slight buff on damage to cav tho still)
 
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