Disccusion about the current position of Infantry

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Einarcf

Master Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I disagree - arrows are limited - once you are out of them, you are outclassed automatically and I think this is true for all game modes (remember: I only know captain). So unencumbered troop should ALWAYS be quicker then encumbered.
To be fair, running out of arrows are not a big problem in skirmish at least. Often possible to loot from the ground or dead teammates/enemies. Most factions use arrows. If using crossbows, you dont really run out, as it shoots so slow.

I actually consider extra arrows/extra bolts perk a waste.
 

Mushbeast

Knight
I disagree - arrows are limited - once you are out of them, you are outclassed automatically and I think this is true for all game modes (remember: I only know captain). So unencumbered troop should ALWAYS be quicker then encumbered.

That's probably true for captain, however in the other modes most archers get at least 30-40 arrows which to me is a bit overkill especially on the classes that have access to beastly 2handed weapons as well. It could be an interesting trade off if most classes had considerably less arrows by default, but could choose the extra arrows perks, which in turn would slow them down a lot. You could imagine the cumbersome difference between holding a regular quiver compared to a massive satchel filled with 40 arrows.
 

DeathBG

Sergeant at Arms
4 buffs to make inf as good as the archer and cav:

1. Some spears must get longer(Aserai,Khuzait) and faster(Empire,Vlandia,Strurgia).
2. Increase the running speed of heavy inf to how it used to be a couple patches back.
3. 1.5x more damage on horses rather than 1x multiplier.
4. Throwing spear option to all heavy infs.

We all know that if there were no limits and class restrictions in tournaments nobody would bother playing inf.So inf needs to be as good as the cav and archers.Some of you may disagree but it's that or archers and cav must recieve nerfs.
 

DeathBG

Sergeant at Arms
Also for 2 days now Servers are dead and TW are not fixing them.Just couple more days are the MP will be finished for good.All that will remain is 200 tryhards playing skirmish at night.
 

RDP

Sergeant
Niche games like this rely on community servers which doesnt look like is happening and taleworlds dont understand the multiplayer side of this game, you all need to put it down and either wait for community servers and modders to fix this rubbish or a better company to copy it. I come back to forums every now and then to see if community servers are up and i see the same arguements every time, TW does not care about the MP.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
1. Some spears must get longer(Aserai,Khuzait) and faster(Empire,Vlandia,Strurgia).

I'd rather not make them longer because as it is right now long spears spend more time glancing or outright ****ing not working. If they fixed it so long spears actually stab cav at close range just as they can stab us in close range with their long spears then sure, why not.
 

Zoonanay

Knight
This still does not compare to the weight of a full chain mail and 2H sword or 1H weapon and shield

Gameplay wise, infantry should be faster than skirmishers. If a medium infantry class existed for all factions, maybe then heavy infantry could be slower, but to my knowledge there still isn't medium infantry for all factions.

Chainmail was designed to be flexible and durable. A knight in full plate could run a hundred metre dash as fast as any skirmisher in light armour, despite just in chainmail and gambeson. It was after several hours of combat the energy expenditure from the weight and restricted breathing would cause exhaustion, for mounted knights this problem was fairly mitigated.

Bannerlord isn't really a historical simulator. You don't block with swords, armour is more effective, horses are more unpredictable etc. these changes are necessary to keep the game functional and fun, and fast skirmishers breaks both of those imo.

Unrelated, but I see plate armour being heralded as impregnable to arrows alot. A Lord's or King's plate armour is vastly different from a lowborn knights or even a commoners in the later medieval period.

Tempering method used to carbon density of the steel makes a huge difference on the final result, a 200 pound longbow would struggle to even catch despite penetrate a Lord's breastplate, but it might certainly penetrate a lower note knights' breastplate. A less noteable knights breastplate might have been forged for their father, and passed down almost as an heirloom, countless dents and piercings being patched and battered out from multiple generations takes ware on the armour's integrity and ultimately might make it ineffective that one time you need it most.

Furthermore, ill-fitting armour was rather commonplace, it was expensive enough to buy metal plate despite having it molded and tailored to you specifically. This is particularly noteable as a less noteable Knight's diet might still largely consist of meat and as years pass gout and weight issues often made armour ill-fitting. Without extravagant wealth constantly re-forging or entirely replacing armour wasn't an available option.
 
Then again skirmishers are just bad equipped infantry with nerfed weapons as it stands now. Take speed advantage as well? I cannot see where this will lead besides a change in meta (which will result in discussions like this one for the other nerfed classes). AFAIK light infantry IS faster than a skirmisher already, more numerous (in captain, not relevant here, but connected) and occasionally even better equipped for melee.
Maybe a healthy view would be: what is infantry supposed to be? In my book, a single infantryman is a bad idea. His equipment fits for interaction with other infantrymen. An archer, mounted troop or similar operate in far smaller groups or even commando-style alone or at least acts more individually and are equipped likewise. Is the same true for infantry? In my mind it always boils down to 'take and hold position' (but NOT alone) and 'storm the enemy in his position' (but again: not on your own). For me, an infantryman is not a good solo-class but I might be wrong here again.

What should the infantry class achieve? Shoot something? No, that is archer/skirmisher class. Mobility? No, that is cavalry for.
I guess part of the problem is that besides not being mobile and unable to shoot, inf must compete on archer/cav's turf. But by making it easier for INF to compete there, we devalue the other classes. Archers are already bad in melee (not the heavy type). If they are caught regularly by almost all other troop types AND their main weapon is useless versus INF w shield one on one...who would play an archer anymore?
Maybe part of this discussion should be "'What is inf good for in skirmish mode, what are its purpose and capabilities?'

And maybe someone could explain sth. to me: Are the classes you can pick in skirmish mode the same as in captain? If yes, the proposal of making INF quicker than archers is horrible, because if both modes are using the same unit stats and equipment imagine what shield infantry would do in such a match with each type of skirmisher in captain. THey would get ROFLstomped by a whole unit of buffed infantry regularly. Are they tied in that regard like change sth. in skirmish, then it will change sth. in captain as well?
 
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Inf walking when they do a new formation or shieldwall is very stupid.. if you try to get 2h units behind walking shields it's guaranted you will lose more than half your troops
 

Zoonanay

Knight
Then again skirmishers are just bad equipped infantry with nerfed weapons as it stands now. Take speed advantage as well? I cannot see where this will lead besides a change in meta (which will result in discussions like this one for the other nerfed classes). AFAIK light infantry IS faster than a skirmisher already, more numerous (in captain, not relevant here, but connected) and occasionally even better equipped for melee.
Maybe a healthy view would be: what is infantry supposed to be? In my book, a single infantryman is a bad idea. His equipment fits for interaction with other infantrymen. An archer, mounted troop or similar operate in far smaller groups or even commando-style alone or at least acts more individually and are equipped likewise. Is the same true for infantry? In my mind it always boils down to 'take and hold position' (but NOT alone) and 'storm the enemy in his position' (but again: not on your own). For me, an infantryman is not a good solo-class but I might be wrong here again.

What should the infantry class achieve? Shoot something? No, that is archer/skirmisher class. Mobility? No, that is cavalry for.
I guess part of the problem is that besides not being mobile and unable to shoot, inf must compete on archer/cav's turf. But by making it easier for INF to compete there, we devalue the other classes. Archers are already bad in melee (not the heavy type). If they are caught regularly by almost all other troop types AND their main weapon is useless versus INF w shield one on one...who would play an archer anymore?
Maybe part of this discussion should be "'What is inf good for in skirmish mode, what are its purpose and capabilities?'

And maybe someone could explain sth. to me: Are the classes you can pick in skirmish mode the same as in captain? If yes, the proposal of making INF quicker than archers is horrible, because if both modes are using the same unit stats and equipment imagine what shield infantry would do in such a match with each type of skirmisher in captain. THey would get ROFLstomped by a whole unit of buffed infantry regularly. Are they tied in that regard like change sth. in skirmish, then it will change sth. in captain as well?

Unfortunately, Skirmish and Captain are completely intertwined. This decision was even more unfortunatley an intentional one. I don't think anyone is certain as to why.

Infantry is the frontline troop. It's job is to push other infantry into bad situations, pressure archers to harass shooting, and deny area of control to cavalry. The problem is right now infantry can't pressure archers in any meaningful way, struggle to deny area control from experienced cavalry and struggle to execute on pressured infantry, often having to rely on cavalry or archers to finish the outpositioned infantry.

Light infantry often chooses between a spear or a shield, choosing to survive against archers or cavalry. Even if they can catch archers, this is almost irrelevant as their shields rarely cover their entire body, if they even have a shield at all, making archers their counter rather than them being an archers counter.

Archers should require infantry and cavalry support, alone an archer should be an easy kill. Yet cavalry fear them almost as much as archers fear cavalry, and infantry are almost always outpaced. Right now heavy archers are more dangerous in melee than infantry, and light archers have some of the highest movement speeds and hold some of the few remaining triple spawns.
 
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