Disarming and picking up weapons offa the battlefield

[CrushU]

Disarming in reallife: Very possible for an unarmed person to disarm an armed person. Even vs a gunman. You need alot of surprise on your side to disarm a gunmant though, but we aren't exactly talking about that sorta thing with weapon disarming.

The best way, short of hitting a point to numb their hand or relax their grip, is to break fingers. There's always wrestling for the weapon, but that's inefficient. Disarming as it's usually known, actually fighting and in the heat of combat, somehow twisting their sword out of their grasp, is very possible, and done in modern fencing. Tricky part is to get it afterwards, unless you have no problem running the guy through.

Disarming in M&B: Um... Maybe, but no. Be fun to let you use it while you're an archer......... But probably not that great an idea, or you should make it VERY hard to pull off. If you can disarm anyone who comes at you, well, you kinda are invincible, and that's not fun.

Picking up weapons from falling enemies is a great idea. It happens after battle. During battle... Basically, it'd just be hard to code. And a higher Memory requirement. Other than that, THUMBS UP.

 

[kuzuk]

Disarming in reallife: Very possible for an unarmed person to disarm an armed person. Even vs a gunman. You need alot of surprise on your side to disarm a gunmant though, but we aren't exactly talking about that sorta thing with weapon disarming.

if you touch a gun, chances are good that you can get a hold. try grabbing someone elses sword... you will end up with a few broken fingers at best and a chopped off arm in less favourable cases.

The best way, short of hitting a point to numb their hand or relax their grip, is to break fingers. There's always wrestling for the weapon, but that's inefficient.

sure, but if you can get THAT close, why don't you just punch or chocke the guy? Or better still: kick him in the nuts.

Disarming as it's usually known, actually fighting and in the heat of combat, somehow twisting their sword out of their grasp, is very possible, and done in modern fencing. Tricky part is to get it afterwards, unless you have no problem running the guy through.

just out of curiosity: i have done some fencing (would that be modern?) and i have never seen nor heard any such thing as grasping the opponents weapon. do you have a link for that? what do you mean by modern fencing? stuntmen fencing?

I once knew a guy (a trained israeli bodyguard) who actually took a knife from someone who thretened him with it. he walked around with his arm in bandages for weeks afterwards.

It might be useful if you're having a one-on-one duel with someone and don't want to kill him -- or just want to show off before you do kill him -- but otherwise I don't see much actual need for this skill.

even if you want to disarm him without to kill, why not use blunt weapons? the only pro argument remaining is show off.

picking up weapons, arrows and shields: IMO a must have.

 

[BobG]

It might be useful if you're having a one-on-one duel with someone and don't want to kill him -- or just want to show off before you do kill him -- but otherwise I don't see much actual need for this skill.

even if you want to disarm him without to kill, why not use blunt weapons? the only pro argument remaining is show off.

I'm presuming this is a one-on-one duel where the option to kill the opponent is assumed to exist. Have you ever heard of a duel of honor being settled using cudgels?

 

[Mathias]

I think disarming and picking up weapons on the battlefield would be a welcome addition. Dropping your own weapon, say its a lance, and then being able to pick up something more useful like a sword, especially if you have lost your horse, would be awesome. I do however think it would be too easy to be able to pick up a weapon from every dead body. I think that the ability to pick up weapons from the battlefield should be limited to weapons that have been disarmed. Meaning you can only pick up a weapon off the field that you have disarmed from the enemy. I think that would be more difficult and would fit in better with the game.

As for disarming a knight with your bare hands, not a chance in hell. A fully armored knight running at you, say stabbing, I don't think you'd be able to reach the hilt of his long blade unless it was through your stomache. Knights and the like in the 1300s would not have had any training in the martial arts, and the thought of a ninja knight in full armor w/ a sword is a little ridiculous.

The problem with this system would be after the battle ended and whether or not you would keep the weapon you picked up. If you had to drop the weapon you were holding and exchange it for another one then I think it would be plausable for you to keep said weapon that you aquired. But equipping only one weapon when going into the battle, disarming an opponent, then picking up that weapon without having to drop yours would be an easy way to make money. However the system is worked out I believe that it would be a welcome addition and I hope that armagan will give it at least some thought.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

t´would be nice the possibility of stealing unmounted horses.
It´s soooo lame to be there, watching thousands of unused horses and not being able to just ride on them

 

[BobG]

t´would be nice the possibility of stealing unmounted horses.
It´s soooo lame to be there, watching thousands of unused horses and not being able to just ride on them

Actually, you can, as long as the horse hasn't started fading out. I believe that you have to be on foot yourself when the rider is knocked out though, otherwise the horses always vanish.

 

[Big J Money]

I think picking up weapons from the battle field is almost a must for this kind of game, with one caveat: more resources would be required to draw the weapons lying on the ground, and keep track of them. Other than that, I don't see any reason why not. They could do it like they do the horses: you get to ride around on it for the rest of the fight, but once the fight is over, they take it from you and throw it in with the rest of the loot.

As for disarming your opponents.... it depends. If this game is going to have more 1 v 1 or similar combat situations, then I can see having special martial tricks like disarms or ripostes being in the game. However, if it is going to stick mainly to battlefield fighting, little flourishes like that would get you killed; not save your life. When you are fighting bands of opponents in life or death melee, chaos is taking place. You don't have the ability to focus or concentrate on one opponent long enough to be able to do those things. It's not that you technically couldn't disarm your enemy, it's that it is pointless to do it. Why disarm your enemy, when you have 5 more behind him with weapons? He'll just manage to get away from you and go pick up a weapon lying around somewhere else, while you get stuck fighting a new enemy. Either that, or one of your allies will strike him down before you get to. I do think it would be cool in the smaller fights, though, like in the arena. If the game features more RPG like storyline events that involve 1 on 1 fights with highly skilled villains, or what-not then it would be a cool thing.

=$= Big J Money =$=

 

[mitto_mors]

That was one of the first things i tried to do in my first tournie ever...had the bow, hopeless with it at the time and wanted a sword...I think it should be added no matter what, well within certain guidelines.

i love all these cool ideas, hopefully the wonderful and awesome devs agree with me, i take my hat off to them as i am astounded on how good this game has turned out.

 

[maw]

i just stop the sword or lance by the point with my chest. or i catch that mace or battleaxe in my teeth. works every time.

or when i'm outta arrows, i just pull the one borcha gave me outta my back....

on-the-spot weapon recovery during battle i'd use. ruffling a dead or unconcious guy fer cash? not. i mean, he's not going anywhere, and theres prolly people out there that still want to kill me and my troops. so, i'd say recovering gold is rather... silly.... in the heat of battle.

mayhap with weapon scrounging could come a 'stun' situation where a blow to your head would cause you to drop your weapon, maybe even see blurry for a few seconds. same to an enemy. maw

 

[The Mark]

Picking up weapons and shields from the battlefield? Definately yes. Looting money from fallen enemies while in battle? No. Leaving your troops to distract the enemy and sneaking up to their baggages with a couple of horsies is entirely another matter though.

For disarming, I'll just give some linkage to the Arma site, again, this time for a disarm that would fit in M&B:
http://thearma.org/Videos/abnemen5.avi

 

[ViulfR]

Good ideas. I like the part about it being a skill.

However, I'd like to point out that in the "fight books" from the renaissance and middle ages that disarming was accomplished with arms, both shield and sword. I would dearly love to have a shield bash!

Alternately, you can grab a sword blade in a mailed or heavily leather covered glove; however, that's more of a binding move than a true disarm. Here's a good place to start:

http://www.thearma.org/essays.htm

and some resources:

http://www.thearma.org/reading.htm

 

[Vachir]

Knights and the like in the 1300s would not have had any training in the martial arts, and the thought of a ninja knight in full armor w/ a sword is a little ridiculous.

A quick read up on some of the ARMA links should clear this up, but people have been killing each other for as long as there have been people, and how to deal with weapons both using a weapon yourself and without one are important techniques in all fighting systems. The idea that you would have to be "a ninja" to disarm someone is a lot more ridiculous than the idea that one trained fighter might be able to effectively disarm another, with or without having a weapon himself.

As to M&B gameplay, I don't see a whole lot of call for actual disarms. I would like to be able to 'loot' items like weapons and arrows from dead enemies, just like I would like to be able to steal horses easier (horse fadeout should give me a chance to nab the horse for a few seconds first!). It would be very very difficult to balance disarming, as you'd likely either have it overpowered and used on every opponent every fight, or near useless and too unreliable to put points into.

 

[Lord Farquaad]

Hi all.

Just purchased the game yesterday

5 hours of nonstop playing (and yes, my mouse-hand still hurts like hell ) on the demo + 2 characters later - yeah, I was milking it for all it was woth

I was totally convinced that this game is a new form of crack

Anyways, just to add my two cents to the mix.

By no means do I play games whilest making methodical notes of possible areas of improvement, that's too much work for my taste

I play for the feeling of enjoyment, and no different with this game. The fact that it invokes feelings of grandeur and unearthed my yearning for adventuring more than made up for the uncompleted state of the game (towns aren't completed, quest + story not 100% there yet, and the fact that it's lacking any documentation ).

I'm also comforted by the knowledge that these issues will all be resolved when the game enters its final state of readiness. I do however feel that there are issue(s) which make or break a game, issues which more than take away from the completeness of the game, but rather detract from the overall realism & pure enjoyment of the game itself.

A big one for me is of course the inability to pick up weapons on the ground. Not counting that it's unrealistic, it stews the balance in combat in cases where say an archer runs of arrows, he is left with no option other than death (if he has no other weapons that is). What about in tournaments where you come up against an opponent with sword+shield combo, you can neither restock your arrows, nor penetrate his shield (this is an issue I don't think needs to be changed).

In the game, we already have the option of accessing our Baggages on the ground at the beginning of combat, is there any chance for code reuse here to implement the same flexibility for weapons left on the ground?

Say a little "pick up" dialog when we look down at a fallen weapon perhaps (with minilistic weapon description for ease of coding - besides, we usually swap weapons when we need to change tactics, there probably wouldn't be the time afforded to do in depth weapon stats analysis), and say utilizing the same animation for swapping weapon/shields when doing pickups.

In terms of the what to drop when doing a pick up, I thought the following would be a fair system:

Categories:
1) Two handed weapons - Bows (excl arrows), CrossBow, Polearm, Two handed sword
2) Single Handed weapon - what have you
3) Shields
4) Consumables - arrows, rocks, throwable stuff

Possible category of pick ups: from weapon -> to weapon
* Equal exchange - drop weapon, pick up weapon utilizing the same carrying capacility (one or double handed):
1 -> 1, 2 -> 2, 3 -> 3, 4 -> 4

* Loss - drop weapon, pick up weapon utilizing less carrying capcility than before (e.g. from two handed to one handed):
1 -> 2

* Additions - No weapon is dropped, carrying capacility is used to better effect:
2 -> 3, 1 -> 4 (projectile weapons only), 2 -> 4 or 3 -> 4 (only if you have weapon used to fire the projectile?)

All in all, I'm not sure how hard it would be to do this. It might possibly get complicated when we take into account weapon requirement stats (use same logic for doing drag-n-drop shopping?) Hopefully this feature will make it into the final product.

Thanks to everyone involved in this game (this incl. this community!) for making it so great.

Lord Farquaad

 

[sapi]

I agree with this idea, and especially with the previous poster.

However, if possible i'd like to see a system along the lines of TESIV: Oblivion, where placing the crosshair on a weapons allows you to pick it up using the use key; but if your encumberence gets too high, you move very slowly...

 

[Archonsod]

Realistically, I see no reason not to allow weapon pickups.

However, gameplay wise the main reason to do so would be archers or similar running out of arrows. There would be an easier way to avoid this.
Have a 'default' weapon. This could act as an extra, invisible weapon slot that is always filled with the same weapon. Not necessarily a powerful weapon, just a 1 damage, no block stick or similar. When you run out of ammo, hit next weapon (or map it to a seperate key) and hey presto, you can still fight (though not very well).

 

[Valec SKylien]

Sure it migh be a concept, but I don't think it is much more realistic than catching arrows with your hands. Unless your opponent is absolutely useless, you won't be able to grab the hilt of his sword before you are stabbed or cut.

You are quite wrong. It is not easy, but it is quite possible to disarm someone when you are unarmed.

If there was disarming it should require that you hit the disarm attack at certain parts of the enemies swing AND should be compared against their skill points in that weapon.

 

[Jarskull]

I've practiced Kendo. I've trained in close quarters combat both armed and unarmed with both traditional weapons and weapons of opportunity. If you are unarmed and someone is comming at you with a sword, rifle, polearm, etc- forget about it. Just run. Theres no way you will disarm this person without getting the fight to the ground. Maybe if they have only a knife or hatchet. Not a sword or anything larger. So unless unarmed tackling was implemented, disarming is almost a moot point in this game.

Survival in combat is about risk management. Nothing flashy about that.

It would be great to charge someone with my horse and watch their sword go sailing across the battlefield. Or a chance that they drop their sword during a parry.

My logic behind arrows replenishing is that you pick them up/pull them out after a fight. However, you would have a few that can not be recovered or repaired.

 

[mightyatlas]

By the way you should be capable of dropping items in the map screen. Well you sometimes dont want to bother to sell(/or trade with defeated party inventory) a 1gp wooden cap or sth else just to organize your inventory.

 

[wxs]

Realistically, I see no reason not to allow weapon pickups.

However, gameplay wise the main reason to do so would be archers or similar running out of arrows. There would be an easier way to avoid this.
Have a 'default' weapon. This could act as an extra, invisible weapon slot that is always filled with the same weapon. Not necessarily a powerful weapon, just a 1 damage, no block stick or similar. When you run out of ammo, hit next weapon (or map it to a seperate key) and hey presto, you can still fight (though not very well).

Fists!

 

[Mravac Kid]

Yup, the ability to punch or kick someone should be incorporated. After all, a plate gauntlet is a formidable weapon at extreme close ranges

And I definitely consider picking up weapons and shields on the battlefield to be extremely important. It shouldn't be too difficult to implement either, a simple way would be just make every dead guy leave behind an inventory box like the one under you when you start.

The problem with that would be blocking out other content of their inventories, such as armor or horses... changing armor in the middle of a battle shouldn't be possible.

And all of that leads me to my pet peeve from the times of Jagged Alliance... dead enemies not leaving behind all of their equipment.
If I kill 5 Dark Knights, I expect to get 5 Black Armors, helmets and boots... it's annoying when I kill someone well-equipped, and can't take his equipment afterwards.