Thanks for looking this up, seems like maybe tactics isn't the major player of the Khuzait issue like we thought.
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Diplomacy Developments
- 主题发起人 mexxico
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On the subject of Sturgia always getting eaten alive, I think Nevyansk Castle may be a part of the problem.
It's a Sturgian "core" territory but is completely isolated from the rest of Sturgia by the sea on one side and Battania on the other, and also borders Vlandia. In almost every game I've started Vlandia has gone to war with Sturgia for it almost immediately, and that war tends to go on for a very long time even as Sturgia usually gets to fighting Khuzait and either Northern Empire or Battania at the same time and it really hurts them because they keep sending armies through Battania to retake Nevyansk and leave a lot of territory undefended.
It's so isolated it doesn't really do anything positive for Sturgia and ends up being a major distraction, and also gets them into a war with Vlandis that seems to serve no other purpose than to fight over that one castle until the end of time, or flood Sturgia with Vlandian troops while they're also fighting 2-3 other enemies.
I like the lore of the Sturgians settling across the sea viking-style, but it really doesn't seem to play well with the game mechanics. I think making Nevyansk Battanian culture and giving Sturgia Uthelaim in exchange, or giving them a new castle in the big, empty expanse by Sibir would help Sturgia out a lot.
It's a Sturgian "core" territory but is completely isolated from the rest of Sturgia by the sea on one side and Battania on the other, and also borders Vlandia. In almost every game I've started Vlandia has gone to war with Sturgia for it almost immediately, and that war tends to go on for a very long time even as Sturgia usually gets to fighting Khuzait and either Northern Empire or Battania at the same time and it really hurts them because they keep sending armies through Battania to retake Nevyansk and leave a lot of territory undefended.
It's so isolated it doesn't really do anything positive for Sturgia and ends up being a major distraction, and also gets them into a war with Vlandis that seems to serve no other purpose than to fight over that one castle until the end of time, or flood Sturgia with Vlandian troops while they're also fighting 2-3 other enemies.
I like the lore of the Sturgians settling across the sea viking-style, but it really doesn't seem to play well with the game mechanics. I think making Nevyansk Battanian culture and giving Sturgia Uthelaim in exchange, or giving them a new castle in the big, empty expanse by Sibir would help Sturgia out a lot.
Thats a myth, https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/group-photo.428984/ here is post about the teams within TW. I think Mexxico works with others on the AI, but they probably pass control around of which blocks of code they are working on. I have absolutely no idea, just a guess.
Im fine with that castle, what i hate is the Sturgian armies gather near Revyl because its fishing village is closest to nvyansk castle. Meaning sturgian armies run into their dead end corner to gather and then have to travel back around to nevyansk which takes even longer.
StewVader
Sergeant
Well that explains a lot. Only 5 sandbox developers, if that number is still accurate.
With 1.5.1 now live, it would be great for people to come back and report on how Diplomacy is going with their Player created kingdoms. So far we have only looked at the world without player interaction!
Finally this never ending war can actually end. I love you mexxico thank you so much
Thanks for feedback
It become great if different players leave here feedbacks with screenshots like this. Also it become great if you leave screenshots from map too. And it become good if you write what you feel about tribute payments, low / high or ideal for your situation.My concern is now wars can usually end in short time periods. This can be also not good for gameplay. But I am aware of it and will try to make them longer by future adjustments.
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While in the shower I thought of a mistake I did in my research. I forgot to remove my brother from the equation, and I forgot that not all nobles are actually party leaders.
I have revised my table.
Potential is the total
Effective is based on amount of party leaders (they had war gear in encyclopedia profile)
Another fun fact. Sturgia has 2 party leaders without any tactic or leadership skill whatsoever. See below.
This table is based on party leaders at the start of the campaign.
So my conclusion here is that Sturgia is underpowered compared to two of its neighbours that are maining cavalry and this already has an auto-calc advantage.
Considering that two of sturgias nobles have no tactic or leadership skill at all is sad and hilarious
I have revised my table.
Potential is the total
Effective is based on amount of party leaders (they had war gear in encyclopedia profile)
Another fun fact. Sturgia has 2 party leaders without any tactic or leadership skill whatsoever. See below.
| Faction | Potential Total faction tactic capability | Effective Total faction tactic capability | Effective Average tactic skill | Effective Amount of Nobles with tactic stat | Total Amount of Nobles with tactic stat |
| Vlandia | 3060 | 2680 | 107 | 25 | 31 |
| Khuzait | 2600 | 2500 | 109 | 23 | 24 |
| Sturgia | 2480 | 2380 | 103 | 23 | 24 |
This table is based on party leaders at the start of the campaign.
| Faction | Tactic skill | Amount of party leaders |
| Khuzait | 180 | 1 |
| Khuzait | 160 | 0 |
| Khuzait | 140 | 3 |
| Khuzait | 120 | 5 |
| Khuzait | 100 | 9 |
| Khuzait | 80 | 5 |
| Khuzait | 60 | 0 |
| Vlandia | 180 | 0 |
| Vlandia | 160 | 2 |
| Vlandia | 140 | 6 |
| Vlandia | 120 | 3 |
| Vlandia | 100 | 5 |
| Vlandia | 80 | 6 |
| Vlandia | 60 | 3 |
| Sturgia | 180 | 0 |
| Sturgia | 160 | 0 |
| Sturgia | 140 | 4 |
| Sturgia | 120 | 3 |
| Sturgia | 100 | 11 |
| Sturgia | 80 | 3 |
| Sturgia | 60 | 2 |
| Sturgia | 0 | 2 |
So my conclusion here is that Sturgia is underpowered compared to two of its neighbours that are maining cavalry and this already has an auto-calc advantage.
Considering that two of sturgias nobles have no tactic or leadership skill at all is sad and hilarious
Achievement for you :
First player gets 8000 tribute payment from any kingdom and place here a screenshot wins!
Three achievements. B is harder. C is medium.
A) Your faction will get 8000 tribute while you are a vassal in any kingdom
B) Get 8000 tribute payment to your kingdom as a king
C) Get 5000 tribute payment from any kingdom while you are sturgian vassal
First player gets 8000 tribute payment from any kingdom and place here a screenshot wins!
Three achievements. B is harder. C is medium.
A) Your faction will get 8000 tribute while you are a vassal in any kingdom
B) Get 8000 tribute payment to your kingdom as a king
C) Get 5000 tribute payment from any kingdom while you are sturgian vassal
My real issue with Nevyansk is that it's the only logical reason for Sturgia and Vlandia to be at war, and they're constantly at war in all my games despite having all of Battania between them. Even if Vlandia takes Nevyansk and they have a peace deal, they're quickly at war again, when they're not really, truly neighbors with all of Battania between them.
I suspect they may be seeing Reyvl and Nevyansk as being much closer to each other than they actually are if they're using straight-line distance for their calculations as well, which would also explain them always fighting and also the behavior you described with them mustering by Revyl. Similarly, I often see Vlandia marching past Varcheg to siege Revyl and I think that's the reason, them thinking Revyl is closer because they're calculating "as the crow flies."
I think you are right about the straight-line calculation which is unfortunate (but i can't confirm), i think another factor of St vs Vl is the fact they are initial enemies and gain negative relationship really fast given they are at war first. I'm pretty sure they take into account relationship when declaring wars so that might be a big reason. Also Battania not being decimated is a good thing to keep WE contained.
Just some info for you guys going for the 8k. The only AI war that came close to that from mexxico's 1.5.1 dataset was this one. If this is an example its going to be a long war to drive up the price.
| WarID | war | War Atk | War Def | Start Year | Start Month | Start day | Pce Prop | Pce Acpt | Pce by | Daily Tribute | End Year | End Month | Start day | Total Days | War type | Winner | Loser |
81 | we x bt | we | bt | 1089 | spr | 16 | bt | we | Defender | -7910 | 1089 | win | 6 | 53 | Defender Victory | bt | we |
Let me take the achievement A, sir!
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I am getting 361 denars daily as tribute and I think it seems ideal. But I don't know how would I feel when I will be the one to pay tribute. Does everyone pay equal? It would be hard to pay for it as a new vassal. Things like number of fief or clan tier might be used to distribute the tribute payment or receivement fairly.
Let me take the achievement A, sir!
You got achievement A!
About your question :
Tribute is payed and received by mostly fief owning ratio among kingdom clans. Towns are counted 2 and castles are counted 1. Default every clan get 1 even they have no settlement. King clan get extra 2. Then tribute is payed and received proportional to total value you have.
Will there be extended diplomacy, politics and the continuation of the game after capturing the map and completing all the missions? Perhaps you can do endless quests that are randomly generated
Yay! Thanks!
Nicely designed system. I wouldn't think of a better way. Players can somehow manage their economy while paying for tribute but I think some lords might go broke as I see some of them wander around with several thousands of denars in their pockets. Their economy management might need some work too.
Really nice job!! Also, the small 1-5 days wars make a lot of sense and I don't think they should be removed, but rather renamed into something else like "Negotiations". You could add this interim between peace and war, sort of a transition period where some hostilities are to be expected and during which the 2 factions can come up with a deal to pay/receive tribute that is to their liking.
Only clan leaders carry money. Others have at most 5-10K and if their money is higher than 5K they pay this difference to clan leader at the end of day. About going bankrupt yes you are right, this can happen. If a kingdom has less fiefs and if they need to pay high tributes this can happen sometimes. But it is like real life. Its good for game you can weaken your enemies by damaging their economy (by raiding their villages / villagers or by taking high tributes). When clan leader gets poor you will see he will take men from garrisons to reduce payments. Then his settlements will be defenceless. This will end up losing fiefs if he cannot manage things in time.
I thing biggest problem is currently game starts inbalanced. Because of 1.2x cavalry bonus Khuzaits are overpowered and they get also tributes. They expand and they also be economically powerfull. I will think something to balance this. Having lots of settlements for any clan can increase tax corruption maybe something like this can make game more balanced. Income should not increase proportional by fief count. Also Khuzaits need to be nerfed will think something for this.
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