Diplomacy Developments

[geala]

...Lots of infos ...

Also bonus irrevelant information : By 1.5.1 AI armies which make siege will calculate player strength with less importance (they will take more risks) so you will be able to experience defender side sieges more frequently. As you know after you sneak in besieged settlement they mostly give up siege.

...Lots of infos ...

I'm not experienced enough to partake in most of this conversation (f.e. stopped playing at 1.4.3) but the plans for solutions sound good to me. Also a big thanks for communicating in such a detailed, sensible and polite way.

To the quoted part of your post: I don't know wether it's your code business or currently still in, but I always regarded loss of men for sneaking in or out of sieged places way too high. I faced losses of 20 to 30 percent and more sometimes, so never used it after the first trial. In the end I installed a mod to remove the "loss feature" entirely. I find the whole mechanic not even very realistic. Could the loss rate at least be toned down?

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I'm not experienced enough to partake in most of this conversation (f.e. stopped playing at 1.4.3) but the plans for solutions sound good to me. Also a big thanks for communicating in such a detailed, sensible and polite way.

To the quoted part of your post: I don't know wether it's your code business or currently still in, but I always regarded loss of men for sneaking in or out of sieged places way too high. I faced losses of 20 to 30 percent and more sometimes, so never used it after the first trial. In the end I installed a mod to remove the "loss feature" entirely. I find the whole mechanic not even very realistic. Could the loss rate at least be toned down?

I don't know the last time you tried it, but a few patches ago the penalty was reduced by 25% and made it more reasonable.

 

[Dabos37]

What interesting is if you look at my graphs, you actually see most factions have a main enemy whose wars last at least 30 days. But now that factions only really want to be in one war, these other shorter wars are like turf wars to see whose the strongest in the moment and who should pay tribute while a faction continues to fight its main enemy. Its quite interesting.

Yes, I have checked that info (nice one, thanks) and it is nice to see how the AI tries to fight just one war, but there are still some war/ peace declaration which do not make much sense to me.

Do not make me wrong, the new data looks pretty promising and I am really happy with this, but I think that some tweaks are still necessary. 30 days wars are still a low number for these main wars and +50 looks like a much better thing (75-100 days would be great IMO).

Plus making war/peace declarations (especially wars) less likely to happen is something easy to do and could help a lot.

@mexxico looking forward to seeing these las tweaks you are doing. Really thanks for taking care about this issue!

 

[SomeWeirdSins]

Is global diplomacy going to be added in the near future? If kingdoms could form alliances then the game could work around a 'balance of power' paradigm. For example maybe the Battanians help defend Sturgia against Vlandia because Caladog doesn't want Derthert to get too strong.

It might also be neat to give the cultures some kind of 'home field advantage' in the heartlands of thier empire so that the core of each empire was very difficult to conquer, whereas the outlands can change hands more frequently.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Yes, I have checked that info (nice one, thanks) and it is nice to see how the AI tries to fight just one war, but there are still some war/ peace declaration which do not make much sense to me.

Do not make me wrong, the new data looks pretty promising and I am really happy with this, but I think that some tweaks are still necessary. 30 days wars are still a low number for these main wars and +50 looks like a much better thing (75-100 days would be great IMO).

Plus making war/peace declarations (especially wars) less likely to happen is something easy to do and could help a lot.

@mexxico looking forward to seeing these las tweaks you are doing. Really thanks for taking care about this issue!

I definitely agree with longer wars, id like to see more wars like the bat vs khu 77 day fight (~1 year). Like I mentioned in one of my bullet points the stronger kingdoms seem to stay in war much longer.

I think something that could help with balance is if the stronger a kingdom gets the more wars they are willing to fight until they are weakened. When making peace with a strong faction the weak faction would take into account how many wars the enemy is in and consider the overall power of people attacking the enemy and either require tribute from the strong or not accept peace. So strong factions have on average 3-4 wars while weak have on average 1-2.This would let kingdoms grow to a certain point before they get zerged by the rest. Just a thought

for example the data shows khuzaits were the strongest and only ever had war declared on them 3 times because they were so strong. So basically once a kingdom becomes the clear strongest no one contests them. They also only had to pay tribute once out of all their wars so they were making a lot of money bullying everyone and never getting weaker. They should either be getting zerged by the weaker kingdoms or paying out massive tributes to weaker kingdoms to not gang up on them.

 

[mexxico]

For people interested, I made same test for current 1.5.0 version and noted all war / peace declerations. As you see tribute system is nearly not used at versions 1.5.0 and before. Kingdoms do not pay more than daily 500 denars for tribute. This will be changed with 1.5.1. Two factions (Northern Empire and Western Empire is wiped out at 1089 and Sturgia remained only 1 town but they survived until end of 10 year test) If you analsys this data you will see factions are facing multiple enemies more frequently in 1.5.0 compared to 1.5.1 and as you see there are nearly 50% less peace / war declerations at 1.5.0 compared to 1.5.1 test (this also can mean wars are 2x longer), this is only good part of 1.5.0 test; anyway by time 1.5.1 will have less war / peace declerations and wars will be longer (50-60 day average) too with developments. Here are all datas collected at 10 year 1.5.0 test :

1084 :
sum01, p, se x as, 0
aut05, w, se x kh
aut15, w, ne x we
aut17, w, as x we
aut18, w, as x se
aut19, w, vl x as
win05, p, we x as, -144
win06, p, as x vl, 0

1085 :
spr21, w, vl x as
sum03, p, as x se, 0
sum04, p, as x vl, 0
sum16, p, se x kh, 0
aut02, w, se x we
aut05, w, as x we
aut20, w, vl x as
aut20, w, st x se
win09, p, ne x kh, 0
win12, w, kh x st
win19, w, ne x vl
win19, p, st x vl, -138

隐藏: World situation at start of 1086

1086 :
spr12, p, we x as, 0
spr14, w, se x as
spr14, p, as x vl, 0
spr16, w, ne x as
spr21, w, vl x st
sum05, w, bt x as
aut05, p, as x ne, 0
aut06, p, ne x vl, -163
aut08, w, vl x we
aut08, w, kh x as
aut13, w, ne x st
aut14, w, se x st
aut18, w, vl x as

隐藏: World situation at start of 1087

1087 :
spr05, p, as x se, 565
spr05, p, we x se, 0
spr07, p, as x bt, 488
spr09, p, we x bt, 0
spr19, w, bt x vl
sum05, p, kh x st, -229
sum05, p, as x kh, 244
sum07, w, kh x ne
sum08, w, se x ne
sum10, w, kh x vl
sum11, w, se x vl
sum11, w, as x ne
sum12, p, vl x as, 0
sum13, w, bt x as
sum14, p, ne x st, 0
sum16, p, we x vl, -471
sum19, p, se x vl, -246
aut02, p, ne x as, 0
aut08, w, we x as
aut09, p, bt x vl, -425
aut21, w, bt x st
win08, w, we x st
win20, p, kh x vl, -403

隐藏: World situation at start of 1088

1088 :
spr08, w, kh x st
spr16, p, bt x as, 0
sum06, p, st x kh, 0
sum06, p, st x vl, 0
sum12, p, we x ne, -119
sum19, p, se x ne, -283
aut06, w, vl x st
aut06, p, bt x st, -112
aut10, w, we x bt
aut21, w, se x ne
win03, p, we x as
win08, w, as x ne
win15, w, bt x ne

隐藏: World situation at start of 1089

1089 :
spr02, w, we x se
spr02, w, kh x vl
spr14, w, vl x ne
spr19, p, ne x bt, 0
spr19, w, as x vl
spr19, w, bt x vl
spr19, p, kh x ne, -211
spr20, p, as x ne, -136
spr20, p, vl x ne, 0
spr20, p, we x st, 0
sum15, w, se x vl
sum20, w, ne x kh
aut05, p, se x ne, 0
win01, p, vl x kh, 0
win03, w, ne x vl
win17, p, vl x se, 0

隐藏: World situation at start of 1090

1090 :
spr04, p, we x se, 0
sum02, w, kh x bt
sum02, p, vl x bt, 0
sum06, w, se x kh
sum06, w, vl x as
sum11, p, bt x kh, -138
sum16, w, st x kh
aut01, w, bt x as
aut02, w, ne x bt
aut02, w, we x vl
aut06, w, vl x se
aut09, p, bt x we, 0
aut18, p, vl x se, 0
win01, w, we x se
win15, p, kh x st, -115

隐藏: World situation at start of 1091

1091 :
spr04, p, vl x ne, 327
spr15, w, we x bt
sum03, p, as x vl, 0
sum06, p, bt x as, -223
sum06, w, ne x as
aut19, p, se x we, 0
aut19, p, bt x ne, 0
win04, w, bt x as
win06, p, kh x ne, 0
win08, p, ne x se, 0

隐藏: World situation at start of 1092

1092 :
spr02, w, kh x vl
spr03, p, vl x we, 0
sum12, p, vl x st, 171
sum14, w, bt x vl
aut05, p, vl x kh, 308
aut05, w, ne x st
aut07, p, se x kh, 0
aut07, w, ne x kh
aut17, w, kh x bt
aut21, p, ne x se, 0
win01, w, se x as
win04, p, bt x as, -160
win09, w, kh x se

隐藏: World situation at start of 1093

1093 :
spr04, p, as x ne, 0
spr04, p, se x as, -206
spr08, p, vl x ne, 0
spr14, p, bt x we, 0
sum04, w, we x kh
sum05, p, vl x bt, 0
sum06, w, ne x as
sum19, p, bt x kh, 0
aut03, w, se x as
aut06, w, st x se
aut08, w, bt x se
aut08, w, ne x bt
aut20, w, vl x st

隐藏: World situation at start of 1094

 

[Blood Gryphon]

For people interested, I made same test for current 1.5.0 version and noted all war / peace declerations. As you see tribute system is nearly not used at versions 1.5.0 and before. Kingdoms do not pay more than daily 500 denars for tribute. This will be changed with 1.5.1. Two factions (Northern Empire and Western Empire is wiped out at 1089 and Sturgia remained only 1 town but they survived until end of 10 year test) If you analsys this data you will see factions are facing multiple enemies more frequently in 1.5.0 compared to 1.5.1 and as you see there are nearly 40% less peace / war declerations at 1.5.0 compared to 1.5.1 test, this is only good part of 1.5.0 test; anyway by time 1.5.1 will have less war / peace declerations too with developments. Here are all datas collected at 10 year 1.5.0 test :

1084 :
sum01, p, se x as, 0
aut05, w, se x kh
aut15, w, ne x we
aut17, w, as x we
aut18, w, as x se
aut19, w, vl x as
win05, p, we x as, -144
win06, p, as x vl, 0

1085 :
spr21, w, vl x as
sum03, p, as x se, 0
sum04, p, as x vl, 0
sum16, p, se x kh, 0
aut02, w, se x we
aut05, w, as x we
aut20, w, vl x as
aut20, w, st x se
win09, p, ne x kh, 0
win12, w, kh x st
win19, w, ne x vl
win19, p, st x vl, -138

隐藏: World situation at start of 1086

1086 :
spr12, p, we x as, 0
spr14, w, se x as
spr14, p, as x vl, 0
spr16, w, ne x as
spr21, w, vl x st
sum05, w, bt x as
aut05, p, as x ne, 0
aut06, p, ne x vl, -163
aut08, w, vl x we
aut08, w, kh x as
aut13, w, ne x st
aut14, w, se x st
aut18, w, vl x as

隐藏: World situation at start of 1087

1087 :
spr05, p, as x se, 565
spr05, p, we x se, 0
spr07, p, as x bt, 488
spr09, p, we x bt, 0
spr19, w, bt x vl
sum05, p, kh x st, -229
sum05, p, as x kh, 244
sum07, w, kh x ne
sum08, w, se x ne
sum10, w, kh x vl
sum11, w, se x vl
sum11, w, as x ne
sum12, p, vl x as, 0
sum13, w, bt x as
sum14, p, ne x st, 0
sum16, p, we x vl, -471
sum19, p, se x vl, -246
aut02, p, ne x as, 0
aut08, w, we x as
aut09, p, bt x vl, -425
aut21, w, bt x st
win08, w, we x st
win20, p, kh x vl, -403

隐藏: World situation at start of 1088

1088 :
spr08, w, kh x st
spr16, p, bt x as, 0
sum06, p, st x kh, 0
sum06, p, st x vl, 0
sum12, p, we x ne, -119
sum19, p, se x ne, -283
aut06, w, vl x st
aut06, p, bt x st, -112
aut10, w, we x bt
aut21, w, se x ne
win03, p, we x as
win08, w, as x ne
win15, w, bt x ne

隐藏: World situation at start of 1089

1089 :
spr02, w, we x se
spr02, w, kh x vl
spr14, w, vl x ne
spr19, p, ne x bt, 0
spr19, w, as x vl
spr19, w, bt x vl
spr19, p, kh x ne, -211
spr20, p, as x ne, -136
spr20, p, vl x ne, 0
spr20, p, we x st, 0
sum15, w, se x vl
sum20, w, ne x kh
aut05, p, se x ne, 0
win01, p, vl x kh, 0
win03, w, ne x vl
win17, p, vl x se, 0

隐藏: World situation at start of 1090

1090 :
spr04, p, we x se, 0
sum02, w, kh x bt
sum02, p, vl x bt, 0
sum06, w, se x kh
sum06, w, vl x as
sum11, p, bt x kh, -138
sum16, w, st x kh
aut01, w, bt x as
aut02, w, ne x bt
aut02, w, we x vl
aut06, w, vl x se
aut09, p, bt x we, 0
aut18, p, vl x se, 0
win01, w, we x se
win15, p, kh x st, -115

隐藏: World situation at start of 1091

1091 :
spr04, p, vl x ne, 327
spr15, w, we x bt
sum03, p, as x vl, 0
sum06, p, bt x as, -223
sum06, w, ne x as
aut19, p, se x we, 0
aut19, p, bt x ne, 0
win04, w, bt x as
win06, p, kh x ne, 0
win08, p, ne x se, 0

隐藏: World situation at start of 1092

1092 :
spr02, w, kh x vl
spr03, p, vl x we, 0
sum12, p, vl x st, 171
sum14, w, bt x vl
aut05, p, vl x kh, 308
aut05, w, ne x st
aut07, p, se x kh, 0
aut07, w, ne x kh
aut17, w, kh x bt
aut21, p, ne x se, 0
win01, w, se x as
win04, p, bt x as, -160
win09, w, kh x se

隐藏: World situation at start of 1093

1093 :
spr04, p, as x ne, 0
spr04, p, se x as, -206
spr08, p, vl x ne, 0
spr14, p, bt x we, 0
sum04, w, we x kh
sum05, p, vl x bt, 0
sum06, w, ne x as
sum19, p, bt x kh, 0
aut03, w, se x as
aut06, w, st x se
aut08, w, bt x se
aut08, w, ne x bt
aut20, w, vl x st

隐藏: World situation at start of 1094

Interesting, this definitely proves your changes have improved kingdom survivability which was much needed. 1.5.0 does seem to have our desired longer wars (I’ll be back much later with some concrete data comparing 1.5.0 to 1.5.1)

Here is a graph comparing active wars, we can see there is half the amount of world wide active wars in 1.5.1, bringing the kingdom average down from 2 to 1.

Working on how long wars last comparison next.

 

[Dabos37]

I definitely agree with longer wars, id like to see more wars like the bat vs khu 77 day fight (~1 year). Like I mentioned in one of my bullet points the stronger kingdoms seem to stay in war much longer.

I think something that could help with balance is if the stronger a kingdom gets the more wars they are willing to fight until they are weakened. When making peace with a strong faction the weak faction would take into account how many wars the enemy is in and consider the overall power of people attacking the enemy and either require tribute from the strong or not accept peace. So strong factions have on average 3-4 wars while weak have on average 1-2.This would let kingdoms grow to a certain point before they get zerged by the rest. Just a thought

for example the data shows khuzaits were the strongest and only ever had war declared on them 3 times because they were so strong. So basically once a kingdom becomes the clear strongest no one contests them. They also only had to pay tribute once out of all their wars so they were making a lot of money bullying everyone and never getting weaker. They should either be getting zerged by the weaker kingdoms or paying out massive tributes to weaker kingdoms to not gang up on them.

Absolutely, there is already something in the code called top dogs or something similar which could have a higher weight in terms of war/peace chance but it is maybe hard to balance.

On the other hand, I do agree with what you have suggested in other posts about khuzait and Aserai going to war more often and this is something what I have been asking for some time.

 

[sniparsexe]

Great changes, great explanation with examples and tables, great communication

Noble ones, our mighty lord @mexxico made us happy again.

We can't thank you enough, my lord

 

[Bannerman Man]

Yes two diferent making peace options is currently a problem maybe we should remove making peace from barter by paying 100-200-300K of money. Thats why still we have 20 days of truce after a war decleration as seen in code :

Maybe instead of bartering a large lump sum of gold to the enemy in exchange for a truce, you can offer a certain amount of daily tribute. Just set the auto-balance point of the barter to whatever tribute value makes the score for peace become positive. The two could even be combined: the player pays a sum of gold up-front as a penalty for circumventing the voting process, and the tribute value is also offered to prevent another war in the near term.

You might still get cases where you offer more tribute than your own faction finds acceptable, and war is immediately declared again to "re-negotiate" the tribute amount though.

Using tribute as a barterable opens up the door for all sorts of other neat gameplay options too. For instance, a lord could loan you a sum of money in exchange for a certain amount of daily tribute repaid over time that represents loan interest. Or if non-aggression pacts become a mechanic, tribute could be part of the negotiation.

To the quoted part of your post: I don't know wether it's your code business or currently still in, but I always regarded loss of men for sneaking in or out of sieged places way too high. I faced losses of 20 to 30 percent and more sometimes, so never used it after the first trial. In the end I installed a mod to remove the "loss feature" entirely. I find the whole mechanic not even very realistic. Could the loss rate at least be toned down?

Two thoughts on that:

1. The number/percentage of troops you sacrifice is partially based on the tactics skill. The higher the skill level the fewer troops that are sacrificed. If the number of troops that are sacrificed is acceptable even without high tactics, then that reduces the incentive for developing your tactics skill because the reward is less meaningful.
2. You are gaining a large advantage by breaking into a besieged settlement. The fortifications/walls are a force multiplier. The question you should be asking yourself in this situation is, "will I lose fewer troops by breaking into the settlement and defending from the inside than if I just attack the besiegers from the outside without the advantage of the walls?" If you find that the benefit of breaking into a settlement always outweighs the benefit of attacking outright without sacrificing troops, then there is no choice to be made, and the correct thing to do is always breaking in. That makes the mechanic less meaningful, which is why balance is important. Sacrificing 20-30% of your troops is really not that steep of a penalty if the fortification advantage you gain over the attackers is 2-3x.

When making peace with a strong faction the weak faction would take into account how many wars the enemy is in and consider the overall power of people attacking the enemy and either require tribute from the strong or not accept peace. So strong factions have on average 3-4 wars while weak have on average 1-2.This would let kingdoms grow to a certain point before they get zerged by the rest. Just a thought

As Dabos said, there is already a "Top Dog" score which factors in who is at war with the strongest faction in the world at the time. If a faction is at war with the top dog, then the likelihood of getting in another war is lowered. If a faction is the top dog, then the likelihood that another faction will declare war on them is increased.

There is also currently a "Benefit Score" that is factored into the decision. The benefit score calculates how beneficial the war is to a faction, and uses the total strength of the enemies of both the aggressor faction and the target faction as part of the formula. Two benefit scores are calculated, one from the perspective of the aggressor faction and one from the target faction, and the likelihood of declaring war increases if the benefit of going to war for the aggressor outweighs the benefit of going to war for the target, and the likelihood decreases in the reverse case.

I would assume that this score is still part of the algorithm in 1.5.1, and may have even been improved upon.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

As Dabos said, there is already a "Top Dog" score which factors in who is at war with the strongest faction in the world at the time. If a faction is at war with the top dog, then the likelihood of getting in another war is lowered. If a faction is the top dog, then the likelihood that another faction will declare war on them is increased.

There is also currently a "Benefit Score" that is factored into the decision. The benefit score calculates how beneficial the war is to a faction, and uses the total strength of the enemies of both the aggressor faction and the target faction as part of the formula. Two benefit scores are calculated, one from the perspective of the aggressor faction and one from the target faction, and the likelihood of declaring war increases if the benefit of going to war for the aggressor outweighs the benefit of going to war for the target, and the likelihood decreases in the reverse case.

I would assume that this score is still part of the algorithm in 1.5.1, and may have even been improved upon.

Looking at the war/dec data from his 1.5.1 test, that did not seem to be having a major impact. You can see in the graphs i posted, Khuzait was only declared war on 3 times compared to an average of 16 of the others. Table of Defender/Attacker counts below. I'm looking for Khuzait to be getting war decced and either having a bunch of wars going or having to pay the weaker factions, thus making khuzait poorer/weaker.

There was 2 periods of time that khuzaits had more than 2 wars going, the longest lastest between winter 13 1089 - spring 16 1090, 24 days and not enough to have an impact on the kingdom looking at the end of 1090 (looks at mexxicos world map pic). They reached up to 5 wars during that period but only for 2 days and then it went back down to 3 wars. This is actually probably a sign that it was working, but the need to keep wars low overrode it, btw Khuzait came out on top of 4/5 of those wars receiving tribute (battania gave Khuzait their first defeat during this time)

Kingdom	Count of Attacker	Count of Defender
Aserai	18	10​
Battania	19	12​
Khuzaits	21	3​
Sturgia	14	18​
Vlandia	9	13​
North Emp	14	17​
South Emp	7	21​
West Emp	13	21​

 

[Apocal]

It might also be neat to give the cultures some kind of 'home field advantage' in the heartlands of thier empire so that the core of each empire was very difficult to conquer, whereas the outlands can change hands more frequently.

Once lords have notable relations set, factions will have a lingering advantage recruiting from their own fiefs -- where they've unlocked more slots -- vs. in conquered kingdoms where they almost certainly raided the **** out of the villages to the point they can't get troops. The systems are all setup for it already, they just have to set their relations and the days of AI lords getting literal easy-mode recruiting are over.

 

[Bannerman Man]

Looking at the war/dec data from his 1.5.1 test, that did not seem to be having a major impact.

That could be due to a number of different reasons. However, without seeing the code from 1.5.1, I can only really speculate what might be going on. Top dog or benefit scores might not even be included anymore.

1. We don't know who exactly is considered top dog at any one time from the data. In 1.5.0, top dog is decided purely from total combined party strength. Khuzait actually starts the game with the least total party capacity of any faction, so they may not technically be top dog all the time. There's also probably a disconnect between the extra strength of cavalry troops on paper compared to all of the actual advantages they provide, such as faster party speed. They might only be considered the top dog by a slight margin, but still be much more powerful in actuality.
2. It's possible that without the additional boost from the top dog score, Khuzait would not have had any wars declared on them. The score gave the aggressor factions the added boost they needed to declare war on Khuzait. This is especially true if the benefit of a war for the Khuzaits is much higher than the benefit of a war to the potential aggressors.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

That could be due to a number of different reasons. However, without seeing the code from 1.5.1, I can only really speculate what might be going on. Top dog or benefit scores might not even be included anymore.

Good points! I would love to see the Top dog factor be in 1.5.1 and have a bigger impact than we've seen in this iteration of 1.5.1.

That and longer wars seem to be the obvious improvements to 1.5.1, without us having tested it yet ?.

 

[Apocal]

That could be due to a number of different reasons. However, without seeing the code from 1.5.1, I can only really speculate what might be going on. Top dog or benefit scores might not even be included anymore.

1. We don't know who exactly is considered top dog at any one time from the data. In 1.5.0, top dog is decided purely from total combined party strength. Khuzait actually starts the game with the least total party capacity of any faction, so they may not technically be top dog all the time. There's also probably a disconnect between the extra strength of cavalry troops on paper compared to all of the actual advantages they provide, such as faster party speed. They might only be considered the top dog by a slight margin, but still be much more powerful in actuality.
2. It's possible that without the additional boost from the top dog score, Khuzait would not have had any wars declared on them. The score gave the aggressor factions the added boost they needed to declare war on Khuzait. This is especially true if the benefit of a war for the Khuzaits is much higher than the benefit of a war to the potential aggressors.

Another poster came in with an insight that had escaped my notice:

I don't think it's just the cavalry combat bonuses, if you look at their Lords' stats they also tend to have exceptionally high Tactics. Almost none of them have below 100, 120-140 is common, and some even have 180. Compare to Imperial and Sturgian nobles and the average is 80, with a few 100s. The rare stand-outs are 140, so that's a double-whammy. Maybe tone them down a bit and bring their tactics at least on-line with other factions, or even lower to counteract massive horse spam.

It is going to get buried here though but I'll go through all the vassals of the Khuzaits and Sturgia to see the average tactics of all vassals combined and then just clan heads (because only they form armies, so far as I've seen). It might be significant part of the puzzle.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Another poster came in with an insight that had escaped my notice:


It is going to get buried here though but I'll go through all the vassals of the Khuzaits and Sturgia to see the average tactics of all vassals combined and then just clan heads (because only they form armies, so far as I've seen). It might be significant part of the puzzle.

This could be the Khuzait nerf im looking for! Interested to see your results of Khuzait lord stats. Also something to look at is the Aserai lords. Side note has anyone else noticed Aserai/Khuzait Companions are always the best?

 

[Revenant342]

I think another part of the puzzle may be how tactics bonuses are applied. Do the opposing leaders' Tactics negate each other, ex. 100 vs 100 = no bonus, 100 vs 140 = 4% advantage, or do both armies simply deal more damage per "round?"

The other aspect would be how the various bonuses interact. IE, does the overall simulation bonus from tactics stack additively or multiplicatively with the bonus cavalry damage? What about bonuses to cavalry damage from perks in the Riding tree? I really don't know much about simulation calculations, so I don't know if they even have an effect, but hopefully someone does. I could see that being a big thing if it's multiplied, because 140 tactics and the cavalry simulation combat bonus would be almost a 37% boost which is huge.

Another thing that worries me down the road is when Tactics perks eventually get implemented, especially the one that gives cavalry a 50% simulation bonus against archers, because that could be a disproportionately huge buff to Khuzait performance on top of what we're already seeing. The again, that's a 150 perk so only Kanujan would get access to it right off the bat, but the prospect is a bit terrifying.

*EDIT* Another thing I thought of but forgot to mention is to ask whether or not the cavalry simulation combat bonus applies in Siege battles. If it does, it really shouldn't because they're fighting dismounted, and that would also be a big bonus to Khuzait.

 

[Stromming]

This could be the Khuzait nerf im looking for! Interested to see your results of Khuzait lord stats. Also something to look at is the Aserai lords. Side note has anyone else noticed Aserai/Khuzait Companions are always the best?

Aserai dudes with Golden moniker is the best imho

 

[Stromming]

This could be the Khuzait nerf im looking for! Interested to see your results of Khuzait lord stats. Also something to look at is the Aserai lords. Side note has anyone else noticed Aserai/Khuzait Companions are always the best?

I also found this interesting so I started checking encyclopedia.

Sturgias highest tactic skill is 140, and they have 4 of them.
Vlandias highest is skill 160, and they have 2 of them, and also 7 with 140
Khuzait has one with 180, no one with 160, and 3 with 140.

This is what I found so far, before going to bed (I'll check more tomorrow).

Faction	Total faction tactic capability	Average tactic skill	Amount of Nobles with tactic stat
Vlandia	3200​	103​	31​
Khuzait	2600​	108​	24​
Sturgia	2360​	102​	21​

隐藏: Full table

Noble	Type	Culture	Tactics	Leadership	Steward
Derthert	Faction leader	Vlandia	120​	120​	181​
Adalindis	Noble	Vlandia	60​	60​
Adaltrud	Noble	Vlandia			50​
Alary	Noble	Vlandia	100​	100​	122​
Aldrig	Noble	Vlandia	60​	60​
Alwith	Noble	Vlandia			101​
Amalgun	Noble	Vlandia	100​	100​	100​
Amorcon	Noble	Vlandia	60​	60​	102​
Anstruda	Noble	Vlandia			62​
Arthamund	Noble	Vlandia	60​	60​
Asela	Noble	Vlandia			121​
Belgir	Noble	Vlandia	100​	100​
Bertliana	Noble	Vlandia			81​
Calatild	Noble	Vlandia	120​	120​	141​
Ecarand	Noble	Vlandia	140​	140​	81​
Elbet	Noble	Vlandia			141​
Eleduris	Noble	Vlandia			61​
Elthild	Noble	Vlandia			80​
Elys	Noble	Vlandia			121​
Erdurand	Noble	Vlandia	140​	140​	100​
Furnhard	Noble	Vlandia	80​	80​	82​
Gudonhelda	Noble	Vlandia			62​
Hecard	Noble	Vlandia	140​	140​	101​
Ingalther	Noble	Vlandia	160​	160​	142​
Ingeltrud	Noble	Vlandia			81​
Ingunde	Noble	Vlandia
Lasand	Noble	Vlandia	80​	80​
Liena	Noble	Vlandia	160​	160​	140​
Lietgardis	Noble	Vlandia			60​
Lucand	Noble	Vlandia	140​	140​	80​
Mauriana	Noble	Vlandia			61​
Megenhelda	Noble	Vlandia	60​	60​	101​
Mitela	Noble	Vlandia	60​	60​
Morcon	Noble	Vlandia	140​	140​	102​
Nogand	Noble	Vlandia	140​	140​	162​
Odofled	Noble	Vlandia	80​	80​	61​
Ospir	Noble	Vlandia	100​	100​	81​
Peric	Noble	Vlandia	80​	80​	82​
Philenora	Noble	Vlandia			121​
Richelda	Noble	Vlandia			62​
Romund	Noble	Vlandia	120​	120​	102​
Servic	Noble	Vlandia	120​	120​	100​
Silvind	Noble	Vlandia	100​	100​	102​
Thomund	Noble	Vlandia	80​	80​	81​
Unthery	Noble	Vlandia	80​	80​	60​
Varmund	Noble	Vlandia	140​	140​	81​
Vartin	Noble	Vlandia	80​	80​	80​
Monchug	Faction leader	Khuzait	140​	140​	121​
Abagai	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​
Achaku	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	60​
Akrum	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	60​
Alijin	Noble	Khuzait			102​
Anat	Noble	Khuzait			141​
Bagai	Noble	Khuzait	120​	120​	120​
Bolat	Noble	Khuzait			60​
Bortu	Noble	Khuzait	120​	120​	100​
Chaghan	Noble	Khuzait	120​	120​	102​
Chagun	Noble	Khuzait
Chambui	Noble	Khuzait			62​
Ergene	Noble	Khuzait			61​
Esachei	Noble	Khuzait			82​
Eselen	Noble	Khuzait			80​
Esur	Noble	Khuzait	140​	140​	100​
Hurunag	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	62​
Ilatar	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	62​
Jigur	Noble	Khuzait
Kanujan	Noble	Khuzait	180​	180​	120​
Khada	Noble	Khuzait	80​	80​
Khorijin	Noble	Khuzait			82​
Kinteg	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	60​
Korte	Noble	Khuzait			122​
Mehir	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	61​
Mesui	Noble	Khuzait	120​	120​	141​
Nayantai	Noble	Khuzait	80​	80​
Oragur	Noble	Khuzait	120​	120​	81​
Sechen	Noble	Khuzait			80​
Sokhatai	Noble	Khuzait			122​
Suran	Noble	Khuzait	80​	80​	100​
Taslur	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	60​
Temun	Noble	Khuzait	80​	80​
Tilun	Noble	Khuzait			101​
Tulag	Noble	Khuzait	80​	80​	100​
Ulman	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​	60​
Unagen	Noble	Khuzait	100​	100​
Yana	Noble	Khuzait	140​	140​	142​
Raganvad	Faction leader	Sturgia	140​	140​	120​
Alvar	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	60​
Andruta	Noble	Sturgia			62​
Apolanea	Noble	Sturgia	60​	60​
Asta	Noble	Sturgia			140​
Bovan	Noble	Sturgia			81​
Dracha	Noble	Sturgia			82​
Erta	Noble	Sturgia			142​
Fafen	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	62​
Galden	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	60​
Godun	Noble	Sturgia	140​	140​	162​
Idrun	Noble	Sturgia			101​
isvan	Noble	Sturgia	80​	80​	61​
Izdenka	Noble	Sturgia			100​
Kisha	Noble	Sturgia			62​
Lashonek	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	62​
Lek	Noble	Sturgia	140​	140​	162​
Lilzha	Noble	Sturgia
Milanka	Noble	Sturgia			80​
Mimir	Noble	Sturgia
Olek	Noble	Sturgia
Osven	Noble	Sturgia	60​	60​
Ratagost	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	141​
Rozhivol	Noble	Sturgia
Siga	Noble	Sturgia	120​	120​	62​
Simir	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	161​
Svana	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	100​
Svedorn	Noble	Sturgia	120​	120​	101​
Tovir	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	60​
Tyaska	Noble	Sturgia
Urik	Noble	Sturgia	140​	140​	100​
Valkava	Noble	Sturgia			101​
Vashorki	Noble	Sturgia	80​	80​	101​
Vidar	Noble	Sturgia	80​	80​	100​
Vitomira	Noble	Sturgia			62​
Vyldur	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	80​
Yachana	Noble	Sturgia			81​
Yorig	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​
Zavarena	Noble	Sturgia
Zheneva	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​	82​
Zlatka	Noble	Sturgia	100​	100​
Zorika	Noble	Sturgia			60​
Zorina	Noble	Sturgia			82​

*Information taken from encyclopedia on a fresh save on beta 1.5.0 branch

 

[StewVader]

I'm still confused. Does mexxico do this all by himself or does he lead a team? Is there a decision making process or does he have the discretion/authority to enact the changes he wants? I thought there was 80 developers, is that just a myth?