Diplomacy Developments

[Revenant342]

The problem is they can get huge number of cavs very easily and quickly.

I tried myself to recruit 100 Kuhzait Nomads and it was very easy to upgrade them to Tribal Warriors which are already over powered against any other recruits. Not to mention raiders/horsemans and HA/lancers.
I also noticed that it's different with other factions. After lords were defeated (lost high tier units) they were running around with 95% of T1 recruits. They seemed to not get the chance to upgrade the recruits.

Maybe the solution could be to decrease the strenght of the Triabal Warriors and make the higher tier cavs harder to get.
Personally I had to buy expenaive war horses to upgrade them. Those were pretty rare and expensive. Do the Kuzhaits get the war horses for free and in huge numbers?

AI doesn't need horses for upgrades. I hope they plan to change that later, because I think that's a big part of the Khuzait issue. That, along with their preferred party composition and how quickly they get access to cavalry units in their troop tree.

Could be worth making the T2 Khuzait Tribal Horseman into a skirmish infantry unit, but keep the T3 Horseman/Raider branch the same. Would push their access to cheap cavalry up one tier to be more in line with other factions without affecting their top-tier units.

 

[froggyluv]

It's the cavalry bonus that all factions get. It's just that Khuzait gets more benefit from it due to their high usage of cav.

Right but what i meant by that question is - is that 20%an absolute or is it regulated by other meaningful factors like suffering penalties for Cav in the mountains or cav in Snow or enemy pikeman etc..

 

[Worlok]

As suggestion of @MostBlunted I made another test with removing Khuzait's speed bonus and 20% strength bonus for mounted units at autocalculation and here is map situation after 9 years :

This shows remaining snowballing is caused because of these 2 bonuses. There remained nearly no snowballing after removing these 2 bonuses at 1.5.1 + hotfix adjustments. There is nothing I can do for these 2 bonuses. I will report this however as long as they stay at game its very hard to stop Khuzaits in long gameplays. In any case even in 10 years they can get 30% of map, better than older versions. Anyway this was final test from me for these issues. I think we collected all information and fixed problems mostly. To improve game we need to add rebellion feature and adjust faction bonuses.

But this is just AMAZING!
I have the impression that extra bonus for Khuzaits might based on Mongols/Genghis Khan. Which frankly was reality

 

[mexxico]

I've completely lost track of what was going to be in the next hotfix at this point, lol. Thanks, @mexxico, a lot of positive changes came out of this topic, and fast!

-change of village healing speed according to strength of faction (8 min, 16 max - was 16 all before)

-better wall levels (mostly 3) at NE settlements at Khuzait border and WE settlements at Battania border.

-less initial prosperity at Khuzait towns and less initial hearth at some Khuzait villages.

-a bit better and stable calculations at peace war votings, less short wars compared initial 1.5.1, average war time increases 30-35 from 23 (initial 1.5.1) @Blood Gryphon can give exact number later if he analsys war peace data I shared today.

-33% less tribute amounts generally

 

[MostBlunted]

This shows remaining snowballing is caused because of these 2 bonuses. There remained nearly no snowballing after removing these 2 bonuses at 1.5.1 + hotfix adjustments. There is nothing I can do for these 2 bonuses. I will report this however as long as they stay at game its very hard to stop Khuzaits in long gameplays. In any case even in 10 years they can get 30% of map, better than older versions. Anyway this was final test from me for these issues. I think we collected all information and fixed problems mostly. To improve game we need to add rebellion feature and adjust faction bonuses.

Maybe one final test, if possible. Give Khuzait the speed bonus but still don´t give any faction the +cav bonus for autocalc.

I believe the cav bonus is the bigger issue.

And thanks for all of your hard work!

If this "works", Khuzait can keep their faction bonus but somethings needs to be reworked for autocalc.

Maybe some people now believe I´m not just hating...

 

[Blood Gryphon]

隐藏: 1084

1084 :
sum15, p, as x se, -2140
sum15, w, ne x we
sum20, p, ne x we, -480
aut08, w, st x ne
aut11, w, se x ne
aut12, w, as x we
aut12, p, we x bt, 970
aut15, p, ne x st, -290
aut21, w, bt x ne
win01, p, ne x se, 1630
win05, w, se x as
win05, p, as x we, -1140
win12, p, bt x ne, -1480
win16, w, we x se
win19, w, bt x we
win19, p, as x se, -1480
win21, w, as x vl

I've been meaning to ask, was there a console command or something to get this data? Would love to see this kind of data for my own campaigns

-a bit better and stable calculations at peace war votings, less short wars compared initial 1.5.1, average war time increases 30-35 from 23 (initial 1.5.1) @Blood Gryphon can give exact number later if he analsys war peace data I shared today.

I'll have some numbers soon to help clarify

 

[mexxico]

Maybe one final test, if possible. Give Khuzait the speed bonus but still don´t give any faction the +cav bonus for autocalc.

I believe the cav bonus is the bigger issue.

And thanks for all of your hard work!

If this "works", Khuzait can keep their faction bonus but somethings needs to be reworked for autocalc.

Maybe some people now believe I´m not just hating...

I think same. Probably main reason is 20% cav bonus. By the way even you made tons of critisism here its good they did not ban you Your idea made everything clear.

I've been meaning to ask, was there a console command or something to get this data? Would love to see this kind of data for my own campaigns

I'll have some numbers soon to help clarify

Sorry but not yet.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I think same. Probably main reason is 20% cav bonus. By the way even you made tons of critisism here its good they did not ban you Your idea made everything clear.



Sorry but not yet.

Your efforts showed him the light, along with many others.

No problem!

 

[MostBlunted]

I´ve encountered most Khuzait armies with a lot of cav (no matter the tier) compared to other factions.

And I guess, that AI Khuzait win a lot of the auto calc battles because of the +cav autocalc bonus. And so they just steam roll. In a player battle the cav isn´t that much of a problem, because the cav AI has a lot of problems, but those problems don´t occur in auto calc of course.

I´ve never played or recruited Khuzait troops (For the Empire!), but they get horse guys at T2 if I´m not wrong.

Your efforts showed him the light, along with many others

Not really, but he and Duh are seeming to be the only guys who care about player feedback. No offense against other devs. But you need to fix the root cause to balance the game.

And you need to be an idiot to ignore the hard work Mexxico did in this thread.

That´s just how I think EA should work.

Communication is the key, he and Duh are communicating with the community.

 

[Revenant342]

When it comes to Lords running around with 95% peasant armies against high-tier enemies, the system favors the side that gets early victories heavily and it's hard for a faction to come back from a series of early defeats.

When two more-or-less evenly matched sides fight, the winner takes casualties, but the loser loses all the troops in their army, even if both sides took about an equal amount of actual casualties in the fight. So a side that wins with 10 guys left still gets to heal their wounded after, for example. The increased healing times in the last patch or so have helped with this at least, so the winning army isn't back to full readiness the next day anymore and needs several days to heal all their troops, and is more vulnerable in the meantime.

Losing side still has way more troops to replace though, and one of the ways they do this is robbing their garrisons. They'll take experienced troops out of garrisons down to a certain threshold, so they actually have a reserve of veteran troops to go back into the fight. If they keep losing though, they don't have that reserve to dig down into, so they're left with recruits. So they're even less likely to win in the field, and as an added downside they've also stripped their garrisons and made their cities easier to take. It just turns into a death spiral.

I think there's a much-requested feature that could help a lot with this: make Training Field buildings actually do something. Currently they give +1/2/3 XP per day, which is over a year to train a single recruit to T2, which is pretty useless. If it was +50/100/150 instead they'd actually be worth building, and help all factions keep at least a small but steady reserve of veteran troops so we don't see peasant armies all the time once a faction loses a few battles.

 

[mexxico]

Not really, but he and Duh are seeming to be the only guys who care about player feedback. No offense against other devs. But you need to fix the root cause to balance the game.

And you need to be an idiot to ignore the hard work Mexxico did in this thread.

That´s just how I think EA should work.

Actually what we did in this thread is completely team work. Thanks to everybody contributed. It was very nice to work with you.

 

[Revenant342]

I´ve encountered most Khuzait armies with a lot of cav (no matter the tier) compared to other factions.

And I guess, that AI Khuzait win a lot of the auto calc battles because of the +cav autocalc bonus. And so they just steam roll. In a player battle the cav isn´t that much of a problem, because the cav AI has a lot of problems, but those problems don´t occur in auto calc of course.

I´ve never played or recruited Khuzait troops (For the Empire!), but they get horse guys at T2 if I´m not wrong.

Yeah, they do get basic horse archers at T2 and they're insanely strong in AI vs AI battles. A couple pages back I made a post about giving my brother's party 90 of them (the T2 HAs).

That setup VASTLY outperformed the balanced armies of veteran troops that I had been giving him, even if they could easily slaughter the 90 peasant horse archer meme army on the battle map. He turned into a unstoppable, money-printing wrecking ball that moved at warp speed, even without the 10% cultural speed bonus because my character's Imperial.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

AI doesn't need horses for upgrades. I hope they plan to change that later, because I think that's a big part of the Khuzait issue.

Yeah this is a change I really want too. It would be especially helpful for the player fighting against the Khuzaits, if the khuzaits had to actually buy/find mounts for their units. Often the p layer will take down large annoying armies but then more annoying part is they come right back with hundreds of t2 HA + others.
If they had to buy them it would mean after big defeat they would need to compete with each other to get mounts, resulting in either more time before next attack or fewer annoying mounted units in their forces. This too would mean less AC bonus and less speed bonus too.

 

[Stromming]

I seem to recall that Khergits in Warband T2 unit was mixed cavalry and horses, probably because not every farmer can afford a horse.
Rather than nerfing HA (I don't mean auto-calc bonus for cavalry) itself, how about you make it a 50/50 chance on T2 getting a horse for Khuzaits, just like in Warband?

Should keep them from having a much easier time early game / when replenishing troops

 

[MostBlunted]

Thanks to the team trying to solve the Khuzait "issue".

I seem to recall that Khergits in Warband T2 unit was mixed cavalry and horses, probably because not every farmer can afford a horse.
Rather than nerfing HA itself, how about you make it a 50/50 chance on T2 getting a horse for Khuzaits, just like in Warband?

Should keep them from having a much easier time early game / when replenishing troops

But it´s not really a nerf, it´s just not beeing a bonus against most factions.

Most other factions just don´t have the same amount of horse guys as Khuzait. If I fight any Empire army they have like 3 out of 50 horse guys. If I fight Khuzait they have like 20 out of 50 horse guys.

So this battle will favor Khuzait anytime with the cav bonus in autocalc. In battles where you are involed as a player this doesn´t matter. But in AI battles it matters a lot. And I would say that 19/20 battles are AI vs AI battles overall when you see the "whole game".

You control one armie/party, the AI controls like 30 armies/parties?

 

[froggyluv]

What about if Horses where actually a finite item -for all troops that is. Then we'd be really getting somewhere with a real dynamic market for troops and faction that spam them. Obviously youd allow more to start with the horse heavy factions but youd also be able to make a dent into the auto-calc system

 

[Stromming]

Thanks to the team trying to solve the Khuzait "issue".

But it´s not really a nerf, it´s just not beeing a bonus against most factions.

Most other factions just don´t have the same amount of horse guys than Khuzait. If I fight any Empire army they have like 3 out of 50 horse guys. If I fight Khuzait they have like 20 out of 50 horse guys.

So this battle will favor Khuzait anytime with the cav bonus in autocalc.

I don't mean to not remove auto-calc bonus for cavalry, for sure that one needs to go.
I meant about nerfing how fast / easy it is to get a good army on Khuzait culture. Like people said before, it's too easy for Khuzaits because even tribal warriors are amazing and can whoop the ass on other T2 units. So to nerf that a bit, make them 50/50 infantry/HA just like it was in warband

 

[Stromming]

What about if Horses where actually a finite item -for all troops that is. Then we'd be really getting somewhere with a real dynamic market for troops and faction that spam them. Obviously youd allow more to start with the horse heavy factions but youd also be able to make a dent into the auto-calc system

Like every Cavalry unit has an Infantry counter-part, and whenever the horse die, they become infantry in the next battle unless you re-upgrade them with a horse?
Would be very cool, but sounds like a very complex thing to implement

 

[Worlok]

Yeah this is a change I really want too. It would be especially helpful for the player fighting against the Khuzaits, if the khuzaits had to actually buy/find mounts for their units. Often the p layer will take down large annoying armies but then more annoying part is they come right back with hundreds of t2 HA + others.
If they had to buy them it would mean after big defeat they would need to compete with each other to get mounts, resulting in either more time before next attack or fewer annoying mounted units in their forces. This too would mean less AC bonus and less speed bonus too.

This!
I literally wiped out 3 x 1k3 Khuzait armies and they keep comming back with full power.
My Sturgian lords were still running around with peasants.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

My Sturgian lords were still running around with peasants.

Those sickles do work tho.