Diplomacy Developments

[Sgtskywalk]

By the way I finished a latest 10 year run with hotfix adjustments (you do not have them yet) and here are results :

隐藏: 1084

1084 :
sum15, p, as x se, -2140
sum15, w, ne x we
sum20, p, ne x we, -480
aut08, w, st x ne
aut11, w, se x ne
aut12, w, as x we
aut12, p, we x bt, 970
aut15, p, ne x st, -290
aut21, w, bt x ne
win01, p, ne x se, 1630
win05, w, se x as
win05, p, as x we, -1140
win12, p, bt x ne, -1480
win16, w, we x se
win19, w, bt x we
win19, p, as x se, -1480
win21, w, as x vl

隐藏: World map at start of 1085

隐藏: 1085

1085 :
spr01, p, se x we, 0
spr02, p, vl x st, -350
spr05, w, st x ne
spr09, p, kh x ne, -3430
sum04, p, ne x st, 110
sum05, w, kh x st
sum07, w, ne x we
sum10, w, se x as
sum12, p, vl x as, -350
sum17, w, ne x kh
sum18, p, st x kh, 270
aut02, p, ne x we, -890
aut09, w, vl x st
aut12, w, st x ne
aut16, p, as x se, 0
aut17, st x ne, -850
win06, w, as x vl
win14, w, se x we
win15, p, bt x we, -3200
win18, w, bt x vl

隐藏: World map at start of 1086

隐藏: 1086

1086 :
spr02, p, as x vl, -2450
spr05, p, we x se, 720
spr09, w, as x se
spr12, p, kh x ne, -1980
spr18, w, vl x st, 840
spr21, w, st x bt
spr21, w, ne x se
spr21, w, se x ne, 400
sum01, w, ne x bt
sum02, p, bt x vl, 800
sum02, w, we x bt
sum06, w, vl x as
sum06, p, bt x st, 930
sum07, p, as x se, 1010
sum08, w, kh x se
sum09, w, st x ne
sum15, p, ne x st, 840
sum19, w, st x we
sum21, p, bt x ne, -1230
aut15, p, we x st, 680
aut21, w, st x kh
aut21, p, kh x se, -1810
win06, w, ne x we
win11, p, bt x we, -1090
win12, w, ne x st
win12, w, vl x st
win13, w, se x we
win14, p, st x ne, -130

隐藏: World map at start of 1087

隐藏: 1087

1087 :
spr01, p, st x kh, 550
spr06, w, kh x se
spr07, w, bt x vl
spr09, p, we x se, -1290
spr09, w, as x se
spr09, p, se x as, 1750
spr15, p, we x ne, -230
spr20, w, as x vl
spr20, p, bt x vl, -1640
sum02, w, bt x ne
sum07, w, kh x ne
sum13, w, we x bt
sum14, p, ne x bt, 1970
sum21, p, se x kh, 3830
aut13, w, se x we
aut19, p, st x vl, -1330
win01, p, we x se, 730
win03, w, se x as
win04, p, vl x as, 80
win08, w, vl x bt
win11, p, vl x bt, -950

隐藏: World map at start of 1088

隐藏: 1088

1088 :
spr01, w, vl x we
spr03, p, we x bt, 1870
spr05, w, st x se
spr08, p, se x as, 770
spr09, w, as x vl
spr10, p, vl x we, -1110
spr13, w, bt x vl
spr14, w, st x ne
spr14, w, kh x we
spr21, p, vl x bt, 1150
sum02, p, ne x kh, 640
sum04, p, se x st, 0
sum04, w, se x kh
sum06, p, we x kh, 1360
sum06, w, vl x st
sum07, p, ne x st, 1300
sum08, w, bt x st
sum17, w, we x bt
sum18, p, st x bt, 1020
aut09, w, as x we
aut09, p, as x we, -2520
aut15, w, ne x we
win13, p, ne x we, 0
win20, p, as x vl, -1070

隐藏: World map at start of 1089

隐藏: 1089

1089 :
spr12, w, as, se
spr13, p, kh x se, -3390
sum01, w, kh x ne
sum04, w, kh x st
sum04, p, st x vl, 770
sum08, w, vl x as
sum11, p, se x as, -500
sum15, w, se x we
sum19, w, se x ne
aut05, p, we x se, -200
aut12, w, we x ne
aut16, p, we x ne, -1820
aut18, p, ne x se, 1360
win05, w, se x we
win05, p, bt x we, -3790
win13, p, kh x st, -500
win16, w, st x vl
win18, w, kh x se

隐藏: World map at start of 1090

隐藏: 1090

1090 :
spr03, p, ne x kh, 0
spr04, w, we x ne
spr05, p, we x se, 560
spr05, w, bt x kh
spr05, w, bt x we
spr08, w, ne x se
spr09, p, se x ne, -260
spr11, p, as x vl, 340
spr17, w, ne x st
spr17, p, bt x kh, 280
spr18, p, ne x st, -210
spr19, w, vl x bt
spr19, p, vl x bt, -2440
spr20, w, ne x bt
spr20, p, bt x ne, -80
aut05, w, as x we
aut11, w, as x vl
aut15, w, ne x we
aut17, p, ne x se, -610
aut17, p, vl x st, -960
win05, p, we x bt, 3170
win08, w, ne x we
win10, p, as x we, -710
win11, w, bt x vl
win15, w, st x ne
win20, w, kh x ne
win20, p, st x ne, -1940
win20, p, we x ne, -800
win21, w, st x se

隐藏: World map at start of 1091

隐藏: 1091

1091 :
spr07, w, st x vl
spr11, w, kh x we
spr10, p, bt x vl, -2370
spr10, p, se x st, -160
sum01, w, bt x st
sum05, p, as x vl, 140
sum12, p, kh x we, -1860
sum21, w, as x we
aut17, w, bt x ne
win02, p, st x bt, 1550
win02, w, bt x we
win07, w, kh x we
win16, p, we x as, 4110
win19, w, st x we
win20, p, ne x bt, 1050
win20, p, st x we, -2630

隐藏: World map at start of 1092

隐藏: 1092

1092 :
spr01, w, as x vl
spr01, w, bt x st
spr01, p, vl x st, -1270
spr15, p, kh x we, -3670
spr17, p, se x kh, -90
spr18, p, ne x kh, 440
spr21, w, vl x bt
spr21, p, vl x bt, -2090
sum03, w, se x we
sum06, w, se x as
sum13, w, vl x st
sum15, w, vl x we
sum17, w, kh x se
sum19, p, we x se, 2350
aut01, p, st x bt, -330
aut02, w, kh x ne
aut04, p, as x se, -450
aut04, w, kh x we
aut07, p, we x vl, 1210
aut18, w, as x we
win11, p, we x as, 2690
win12, p, bt x we, -4720
win19, p, we x kh, 1760

隐藏: World map at start of 1093

隐藏: 1093

1093 :
spr03, w, bt x vl
spr11, p, vl x as, 1360
spr18, p, bt x vl, -470
sum01, w, bt x ne
sum02, w, we x bt
sum06, p, kh x ne, -1510
sum10, w, se x we
sum15, w, bt x st
sum15, p, st x vl, -1040
sum16, w, as x we
aut02, w, as x vl
aut04, p, we x se, 760
win05, w, kh x ne
win12, p, st x vl, -570
win18, p, we x as, 1160

隐藏: World map at start of 1094

1.5.1 + hotfix table :
10 year fortification (towns are counted 2, castles are counted 1) / number of clans / clan leader gold average as 1000 gold table :

1.4.3 or 1.5.0 table (I am not sure when I collected data)

Conclusion :
1-Still Khuzait can get 30% of territory at first 10 years means nearly doubles his territory. (It was worse before, main reason : +20% combat bonus + speed bonus)
2-None of factions are wiped out in first ten years. This is good but need to be better. Northern Empire remained only 1 town. Most important reason is they have largest border with Khuzait.
3-There is an inflation in total money clans has. Start with 1M in total (1084) and be 3M in total in 10 years (1094). Especially 1M of this money is at Khuzait clans. This should be balanced. While balancing we can use loyality factor. For example there can be tax corruption in towns with less loyality these towns can give only 25-50-75% of taxes according to loyality (0-9, 10-19, 20-29).
4-Generally kingdoms are getting more powerfull or losing power each year linerly. Losing kingdoms or winning kingdoms do not change much and this can make game boring. In some years there should be unexpected things like a strong kingdom losing 2-3 towns. This can be done by rebellions after now or we can add other mechanics for this to happen.
5-We should make rebellions especially effecting towns with less loyality which are ruled by a king at different culture.

Great job so far @mexxico ! As you said, balancing the economy and adding rebellions will prove to be good ways to even the odds. As was mentionned above me as well, allowing factions to ally themselves (perhaps even merge together for the Empire ones, forming one true Empire) should also help bring additionnal forces against a massive faction. Introducing environmental bonuses/handicaps should also help factions stick in their starting zone or close around it (perhaps some supply mechanics so that factions don't target settlements that are too far from their border when at war). Finally, if nothing else does it for the Khuzait, maybe nerf their combat skills/equipment, and perhaps add a long wall alongside the Empire/Khuzait border like I suggested a couple days back, with a couple of 2-way castles with big garrisons, to really slow down their advance into Empire territory.

Finally, I think it is good that Empire factions gradually lose power and disappear (maybe over 30 years or so) to fit well within the lore, considering the Empire was no more in the time-period of Warband. So maybe have a slow linear decline for them over time.

 

[Revenant342]

The money inflation is interesting, especially considering overall prosperity in the world tends to decrease over time, so the main money supply, fief income, seems to go down.

So, what do Lords spend money on? It seems like wages are the only thing that actually removes money from the economy. Mercenary payments, tribute, and ransoms are all big expenses but only moves money from one Lord to another. So what can we think of for them to spend their money on?

I also did an interesting experiment. My companion parties that aren't in an army usually roam around raiding villages and generally costing me money until they inevitably die. So, I decided to give my brother 90 Khuzait Tribal Warriors (basic T2 HAs) and set him loose. HOO BOY, WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

He's running around exterminating enemy caravans left and right and making me 1-2k per day. It's been over an in-game month and he still has 30 HA and 30 Cav left, along with 40 infantry he picked up, and hasn't lost a fight yet. I assume the Cav are all upgraded from the T2 HAs, but I'm not sure because he's still so fast I can't catch him to inspect his troops, even with all my infantry mounted and the Nomadic Traditions perk. I think it's a good analogy for why Khuzait is so strong right now.

Might also partially explain Khuzait having so much money despite their starting territories being relatively poor and all the territory they take being burned to the ground. They seem to have much better success chasing down caravans because of their speed, and if my Brother's party is any indication that's hugely lucrative for the AI if they can do it consistently.

 

[MostBlunted]

@mexxico

I don´t know you if you have the option to test it but would it be possible that you remove the speed bonus from Khuzait and the cav bonus for auto calc for all factions and see what happens? I´m talking about your internal build of course.

 

[Apocal]

Yes it would make sense to implement the same for hot weather and give Aserai an advantage too but they seem to do alright in my recent campaigns so far so I didn't want to make them have too much advantage. But I wouldn't say no if heat morale loss could be implemented with some balance. Having to provide drink in deserts or having to provide hardwood in cold weather could be cool too and would provide some depth to logistics.

This read below can give some insight about logistics on desert.

隐藏: God's Shadow: Sultan Selim

snip

It felt weird for me to be able to chase desert bandits for days on Aserai desert. If we had to visit oasises for water supply, had to bring beer and wine(and maybe water if we get a feature to store it) it would make deserts in the game seem as dangerous places as they are in real life. And according to the text above, a nerf to the speed of horses on desert would make sense too which would give camels a use.

They actually made it so horses go slower on desert maps, during tactical battles.

So, what do Lords spend money on? It seems like wages are the only thing that actually removes money from the economy. Mercenary payments, tribute, and ransoms are all big expenses but only moves money from one Lord to another. So what can we think of for them to spend their money on?

They purchase food. They purchase even outrageously overpriced food -- I once had some butter selling in my town for 150 denars and a passing army still ****ing bought it!

 

[Apocal]

Might also partially explain Khuzait having so much money despite their starting territories being relatively poor and all the territory they take being burned to the ground. They seem to have much better success chasing down caravans because of their speed, and if my Brother's party is any indication that's hugely lucrative for the AI if they can do it consistently.

Yeah, one of the early economy issues was that lords made the majority of their income from loot, not fiefholding. Fiefs don't really pay that much but anything the AI loots is instantly converted into denars at a pretty favorable exchange rate, so it is well over half their income. And they have tons of money -- a normal amount for a clan head is 150,000 or more. (You can check by opening up the barter menu.)

So nerfing their starting prosperity isn't going to help much if they can still win battles.

Should we tie prosperity to recruitment?

 

[Bannerman Man]

While balancing we can use loyality factor. For example there can be tax corruption in towns with less loyality these towns can give only 25%-50%-75% of taxes according to loyality (0-9, 10-19, 20-29).

Mexxico, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't tax corruption happen already based on security and loyalty? I'm talking about the CalculateSecurityGoldCutDueToCorruption method that is called by CalculateDailyTaxInternal. Security needs to be below 75 for that to happen, and at the moment it's very easy to keep security high.

On a side note, what do you think the pos/neg would be if villagers actually bought stuff from towns, and things they bought, lets say tools for example, would provide some sort of bonus to the village?

That's not a bad idea. Though for tools specifically, towns already get a small (mostly negligible, needs a buff) boost to their construction stats for each tool they consume per day. You'd want to make sure that towns and their bound villages are not competing for certain resources if they produce an effect. You would also need to work out a formula for how many resources villagers would buy and consume each trip, and for that you'd need to give every applicable resource some demand values so they are not consumed to quickly or slowly. There is already one such list for towns, and if you add another one for villages it becomes harder to tune.

 

[mexxico]

@mexxico

I don´t know you if you have the option to test it but would it be possible that you remove the speed bonus from Khuzait and the cav bonus for auto calc for all factions and see what happens? I´m talking about your internal build of course.

Good idea.

Mexxico, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't tax corruption happen already based on security and loyalty? I'm talking about the CalculateSecurityGoldCutDueToCorruption method that is called by CalculateDailyTaxInternal. Security needs to be below 75 for that to happen, and at the moment it's very easy to keep security high.

Yes you are right. It is there but as you said currently security is nearly always high. We should connect this corruption to only loyality.

 

[black_bulldog]

The money inflation is interesting, especially considering overall prosperity in the world tends to decrease over time, so the main money supply, fief income, seems to go down.

So, what do Lords spend money on? It seems like wages are the only thing that actually removes money from the economy. Mercenary payments, tribute, and ransoms are all big expenses but only moves money from one Lord to another. So what can we think of for them to spend their money on?

I also did an interesting experiment. My companion parties that aren't in an army usually roam around raiding villages and generally costing me money until they inevitably die. So, I decided to give my brother 90 Khuzait Tribal Warriors (basic T2 HAs) and set him loose. HOO BOY, WHAT A DIFFERENCE.

He's running around exterminating enemy caravans left and right and making me 1-2k per day. It's been over an in-game month and he still has 30 HA and 30 Cav left, along with 40 infantry he picked up, and hasn't lost a fight yet. I assume the Cav are all upgraded from the T2 HAs, but I'm not sure because he's still so fast I can't catch him to inspect his troops, even with all my infantry mounted and the Nomadic Traditions perk. I think it's a good analogy for why Khuzait is so strong right now.

Might also partially explain Khuzait having so much money despite their starting territories being relatively poor and all the territory they take being burned to the ground. They seem to have much better success chasing down caravans because of their speed, and if my Brother's party is any indication that's hugely lucrative for the AI if they can do it consistently.

I ether give him top tier troops or give him bandits who are max level and can be turned into elite troops, since he has disciplinarian perk, and let him loose. He will tear people a new one.

 

[Nodice83]

Conclusion :
1-Still Khuzait can get 30% of territory at first 10 years means nearly doubles his territory. (It was worse before, main reason : +20% combat bonus + speed bonus)
2-None of factions are wiped out in first ten years. This is good but need to be better. Northern Empire remained only 1 town. Most important reason is they have largest border with Khuzait.
3-There is an inflation in total money clans has. Start with 1M as total of averages (1084) and be 3M in 10 years (1094). Especially money Khuzait clans has nearly 1M average. This should be balanced. While balancing we can use loyality factor. For example there can be tax corruption in towns with less loyality these towns can give only 25%-50%-75% of taxes according to loyality (0-9, 10-19, 20-29).
4-Generally kingdoms are getting more powerfull or losing power each year linerly. Losing kingdoms or winning kingdoms do not change much and this can make game boring. As you look table I shared above Khuzait fortifications are increasing each year and NE and WE are decreasing each year. In some years there should be unexpected things like a strong kingdom losing 2-3 fortifications or weak kingdom getting 2-3 new fortifications. This can be done by rebellions after now or we can add other mechanics for this to happen.
5-We should make rebellions especially effecting towns with less loyality which are ruled by a king at different culture

Great conclusions. I especially like 3&4.

 

[Revenant342]

They actually made it so horses go slower on desert maps, during tactical battles.



They purchase food. They purchase even outrageously overpriced food -- I once had some butter selling in my town for 150 denars and a passing army still ****ing bought it!

Even at rare outrageous prices, food purchases still seem to be kind of a drop in the bucket. Maybe having them buy more horses to increase army speed and requiring them to use horses to upgrade Cav like the player does could help, but that would probably need to be balanced with a big boost in global horse production because consumption would go through the roof.

 

[Flesson19]

From my first 1.5.1 game Sturgia holding their own better, Khuzait still dominant, Aserai doing good, the problem still is the Empire, they fight with each other so much that other nations still steam roll them. In my game Southern has around 7 cities and North and West have 1 so they are done. battania seems better also. All in All I would say an amazing first fix, Wouldn't have expected it to work so well on the first try. I am eager to see the changes still coming

 

[Revenant342]

I ether give him top tier troops or give him bandits who are max level and can be turned into elite troops, since he has disciplinarian perk, and let him loose. He will tear people a new one.

Even giving him top-tier foot troops, he would still get caught outnumbered deep in enemy territory and wiped out quite frequently. I think the speed here is letting him get away from encounters he doesn't like, because he's way deep into Aserai territory right now all by himself and still hasn't been caught. The income side of it isn't even comparable either, he never turned a profit with an infantry army and cost me a ton because of the elite troops. Now he's just a money-printing, caravan-wrecking speed demon. Currently making more off of him than my mercenary contract, lol.

Far as the Disciplinarian perk goes, it doesn't actually seem to matter. Any AI character can upgrade bandit troops even without it, same goes for garrisons. You can dump 40 upgrade-ready Forest Bandits into a garrison or clan party and pull out 40 Fians the next day as soon as wages get calculated. They also upgrade for free so it's pretty cheesy. Same goes for Cav upgrades that require Horses or Warhorses.

 

[black_bulldog]

Even giving him top-tier foot troops, he would still get caught outnumbered deep in enemy territory and wiped out quite frequently. I think the speed here is letting him get away from encounters he doesn't like, because he's way deep into Aserai territory right now all by himself and still hasn't been caught. The income side of it isn't even comparable either, he never turned a profit with an infantry army and cost me a ton because of the elite troops. Now he's just a money-printing, caravan-wrecking speed demon. Currently making more off of him than my mercenary contract, lol.

Far as the Disciplinarian perk goes, it doesn't actually seem to matter. Any AI character can upgrade bandit troops even without it, same goes for garrisons. You can dump 40 upgrade-ready Forest Bandits into a garrison or clan party and pull out 40 Fians the next day as soon as wages get calculated. They also upgrade for free so it's pretty cheesy. Same goes for Cav upgrades that require Horses or Warhorses.

I usually play as a Khurzait, so he has the speed bonus and I give him plenty of cavalry.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

By the way I finished a latest 10 year run with hotfix adjustments (you do not have them yet) and here are results :

隐藏: 1084

1084 :
sum15, p, as x se, -2140
sum15, w, ne x we
sum20, p, ne x we, -480
aut08, w, st x ne
aut11, w, se x ne
aut12, w, as x we
aut12, p, we x bt, 970
aut15, p, ne x st, -290
aut21, w, bt x ne
win01, p, ne x se, 1630
win05, w, se x as
win05, p, as x we, -1140
win12, p, bt x ne, -1480
win16, w, we x se
win19, w, bt x we
win19, p, as x se, -1480
win21, w, as x vl

隐藏: World map at start of 1085

隐藏: 1085

1085 :
spr01, p, se x we, 0
spr02, p, vl x st, -350
spr05, w, st x ne
spr09, p, kh x ne, -3430
sum04, p, ne x st, 110
sum05, w, kh x st
sum07, w, ne x we
sum10, w, se x as
sum12, p, vl x as, -350
sum17, w, ne x kh
sum18, p, st x kh, 270
aut02, p, ne x we, -890
aut09, w, vl x st
aut12, w, st x ne
aut16, p, as x se, 0
aut17, st x ne, -850
win06, w, as x vl
win14, w, se x we
win15, p, bt x we, -3200
win18, w, bt x vl

隐藏: World map at start of 1086

隐藏: 1086

1086 :
spr02, p, as x vl, -2450
spr05, p, we x se, 720
spr09, w, as x se
spr12, p, kh x ne, -1980
spr18, w, vl x st, 840
spr21, w, st x bt
spr21, w, ne x se
spr21, w, se x ne, 400
sum01, w, ne x bt
sum02, p, bt x vl, 800
sum02, w, we x bt
sum06, w, vl x as
sum06, p, bt x st, 930
sum07, p, as x se, 1010
sum08, w, kh x se
sum09, w, st x ne
sum15, p, ne x st, 840
sum19, w, st x we
sum21, p, bt x ne, -1230
aut15, p, we x st, 680
aut21, w, st x kh
aut21, p, kh x se, -1810
win06, w, ne x we
win11, p, bt x we, -1090
win12, w, ne x st
win12, w, vl x st
win13, w, se x we
win14, p, st x ne, -130

隐藏: World map at start of 1087

隐藏: 1087

1087 :
spr01, p, st x kh, 550
spr06, w, kh x se
spr07, w, bt x vl
spr09, p, we x se, -1290
spr09, w, as x se
spr09, p, se x as, 1750
spr15, p, we x ne, -230
spr20, w, as x vl
spr20, p, bt x vl, -1640
sum02, w, bt x ne
sum07, w, kh x ne
sum13, w, we x bt
sum14, p, ne x bt, 1970
sum21, p, se x kh, 3830
aut13, w, se x we
aut19, p, st x vl, -1330
win01, p, we x se, 730
win03, w, se x as
win04, p, vl x as, 80
win08, w, vl x bt
win11, p, vl x bt, -950

隐藏: World map at start of 1088

隐藏: 1088

1088 :
spr01, w, vl x we
spr03, p, we x bt, 1870
spr05, w, st x se
spr08, p, se x as, 770
spr09, w, as x vl
spr10, p, vl x we, -1110
spr13, w, bt x vl
spr14, w, st x ne
spr14, w, kh x we
spr21, p, vl x bt, 1150
sum02, p, ne x kh, 640
sum04, p, se x st, 0
sum04, w, se x kh
sum06, p, we x kh, 1360
sum06, w, vl x st
sum07, p, ne x st, 1300
sum08, w, bt x st
sum17, w, we x bt
sum18, p, st x bt, 1020
aut09, w, as x we
aut09, p, as x we, -2520
aut15, w, ne x we
win13, p, ne x we, 0
win20, p, as x vl, -1070

隐藏: World map at start of 1089

隐藏: 1089

1089 :
spr12, w, as, se
spr13, p, kh x se, -3390
sum01, w, kh x ne
sum04, w, kh x st
sum04, p, st x vl, 770
sum08, w, vl x as
sum11, p, se x as, -500
sum15, w, se x we
sum19, w, se x ne
aut05, p, we x se, -200
aut12, w, we x ne
aut16, p, we x ne, -1820
aut18, p, ne x se, 1360
win05, w, se x we
win05, p, bt x we, -3790
win13, p, kh x st, -500
win16, w, st x vl
win18, w, kh x se

隐藏: World map at start of 1090

隐藏: 1090

1090 :
spr03, p, ne x kh, 0
spr04, w, we x ne
spr05, p, we x se, 560
spr05, w, bt x kh
spr05, w, bt x we
spr08, w, ne x se
spr09, p, se x ne, -260
spr11, p, as x vl, 340
spr17, w, ne x st
spr17, p, bt x kh, 280
spr18, p, ne x st, -210
spr19, w, vl x bt
spr19, p, vl x bt, -2440
spr20, w, ne x bt
spr20, p, bt x ne, -80
aut05, w, as x we
aut11, w, as x vl
aut15, w, ne x we
aut17, p, ne x se, -610
aut17, p, vl x st, -960
win05, p, we x bt, 3170
win08, w, ne x we
win10, p, as x we, -710
win11, w, bt x vl
win15, w, st x ne
win20, w, kh x ne
win20, p, st x ne, -1940
win20, p, we x ne, -800
win21, w, st x se

隐藏: World map at start of 1091

隐藏: 1091

1091 :
spr07, w, st x vl
spr11, w, kh x we
spr10, p, bt x vl, -2370
spr10, p, se x st, -160
sum01, w, bt x st
sum05, p, as x vl, 140
sum12, p, kh x we, -1860
sum21, w, as x we
aut17, w, bt x ne
win02, p, st x bt, 1550
win02, w, bt x we
win07, w, kh x we
win16, p, we x as, 4110
win19, w, st x we
win20, p, ne x bt, 1050
win20, p, st x we, -2630

隐藏: World map at start of 1092

隐藏: 1092

1092 :
spr01, w, as x vl
spr01, w, bt x st
spr01, p, vl x st, -1270
spr15, p, kh x we, -3670
spr17, p, se x kh, -90
spr18, p, ne x kh, 440
spr21, w, vl x bt
spr21, p, vl x bt, -2090
sum03, w, se x we
sum06, w, se x as
sum13, w, vl x st
sum15, w, vl x we
sum17, w, kh x se
sum19, p, we x se, 2350
aut01, p, st x bt, -330
aut02, w, kh x ne
aut04, p, as x se, -450
aut04, w, kh x we
aut07, p, we x vl, 1210
aut18, w, as x we
win11, p, we x as, 2690
win12, p, bt x we, -4720
win19, p, we x kh, 1760

隐藏: World map at start of 1093

隐藏: 1093

1093 :
spr03, w, bt x vl
spr11, p, vl x as, 1360
spr18, p, bt x vl, -470
sum01, w, bt x ne
sum02, w, we x bt
sum06, p, kh x ne, -1510
sum10, w, se x we
sum15, w, bt x st
sum15, p, st x vl, -1040
sum16, w, as x we
aut02, w, as x vl
aut04, p, we x se, 760
win05, w, kh x ne
win12, p, st x vl, -570
win18, p, we x as, 1160

隐藏: World map at start of 1094

1.5.1 + hotfix table :
10 year fortification (towns are counted 2, castles are counted 1) / number of clans / clan leader gold average as 1000 gold table :

1.5.1 table (without hotfix adjustments - 8 year only)

1.4.3 or 1.5.0 table (I am not sure when I collected data)

Conclusion :
1-Still Khuzait can get 30% of territory at first 10 years means nearly doubles his territory. (It was worse before, main reason : +20% combat bonus + speed bonus)
2-None of factions are wiped out in first ten years. This is good but need to be better. Northern Empire remained only 1 town. Most important reason is they have largest border with Khuzait.
3-There is an inflation in total money clans has. Start with 1M as total of averages (1084) and be 3M in 10 years (1094). Especially money Khuzait clans has nearly 1M average. This should be balanced. While balancing we can use loyality factor. For example there can be tax corruption in towns with less loyality these towns can give only 25%-50%-75% of taxes according to loyality (0-9, 10-19, 20-29).
4-Generally kingdoms are getting more powerfull or losing power each year linerly. Losing kingdoms or winning kingdoms do not change much and this can make game boring. As you look table I shared above Khuzait fortifications are increasing each year and NE and WE are decreasing each year. In some years there should be unexpected things like a strong kingdom losing 2-3 fortifications or weak kingdom getting 2-3 new fortifications. This can be done by rebellions after now or we can add other mechanics for this to happen.
5-We should make rebellions especially effecting towns with less loyality which are ruled by a king at different culture.

I'll get us some graphs to compare soon!

1. Yep
2. I'm surprised thats much better than before, (had you already nerfed khuzait prosperity and given those castles upgraded walls in the test?)
3.I like this idea
4.Absolutely agree with unexpected things happening and major comebacks, some of the most inspiring things in life are comebacks.
5. I'm interested to see how rebellions turn out and how they have an impact, right now it seems like it could be a disrupter for the winners to slow down their conquests to deal with rebellions. Could really help the snowballing

P.S. You definitely deserve a vacation after the crazy amount of work you've put in since you've been back. There are plenty of us who truly appreciate the hard work you put into this, you can tell by the passion fans have you've helped create one of the best games out there (even if we still have some work to do )

 

[Apocal]

Even giving him top-tier foot troops, he would still get caught outnumbered deep in enemy territory and wiped out quite frequently. I think the speed here is letting him get away from encounters he doesn't like, because he's way deep into Aserai territory right now all by himself and still hasn't been caught. The income side of it isn't even comparable either, he never turned a profit with an infantry army and cost me a ton because of the elite troops. Now he's just a money-printing, caravan-wrecking speed demon. Currently making more off of him than my mercenary contract, lol.

Are you taking a relations hit for him raiding caravans?

 

[Revenant342]

That's not a bad idea. Though for tools specifically, towns already get a small (mostly negligible, needs a buff) boost to their construction stats for each tool they consume per day. You'd want to make sure that towns and their bound villages are not competing for certain resources if they produce an effect. You would also need to work out a formula for how many resources villagers would buy and consume each trip, and for that you'd need to give every applicable resource some demand values so they are not consumed to quickly or slowly. There is already one such list for towns, and if you add another one for villages it becomes harder to tune.

Could be interesting if villagers bought tools in towns and brought them back to increase hearth growth. Like you said, the bonus to towns is negligible and towns already have a ton of ways to increase production, especially in player hands, but there are very few things that affect village growth in the game currently.

I only ever see villages with 0.5/0.75/1.0 base growth in AI hands, and I don't know what determines the bonus. Irrigation can be a very powerful village growth tool if you stack town production bonuses as the player, but the AI doesn't use it and doesn't get nearly the production the player does using governors and reserve boost that the player does, so they wouldn't get nearly the same benefit from it anyway.

 

[Revenant342]

Are you taking a relations hit for him raiding caravans?

I am not, which makes it much better than village raids in that category as well. I don't seem to get a relationship hit with the caravan owner unless I'm personally involved in the battle.

Not sure if it's affecting his personal relationship with them, he doesn't have any enemies listed in his encyclopedia page and I doubt that would really matter anyway if he was.

 

[Bannerman Man]

I only ever see villages with 0.5/0.75/1.0 base growth in AI hands, and I don't know what determines the bonus. Irrigation can be a very powerful village growth tool if you stack town production bonuses as the player, but the AI doesn't use it and doesn't get nearly the production the player does using governors and reserve boost that the player does, so they wouldn't get nearly the same benefit from it anyway.

Oh interesting, I hadn't realized that had changed. That was an idea we talked about awhile back; glad to see it was included. It's based on the current hearth number of the village. They have a +1 growth rate with hearths < 200, +0.75 growth between 200 and 600, and +0.5 when hearths are > 600. It helps villages that are constantly raided bounce back quicker.

The player definitely has a lot of powerful options available. One suggestion I made awhile back was to give AI lords more starting engineering skill to help boost the construction rate when they serve as governors, and I still think that would be a good change. If npcs can be made to properly use the daily defaults, more construction can translate into higher village growth with Irrigation.

 

[Footbeard]

Are you taking a relations hit for him raiding caravans?

Interested in this. Also interested if your companions raiding villages/caravans changes their traits and whether we'll be able to ask them not to.

I also think the Khuzait Lords are so strong because they are absurdly quick on the world map which makes chasing them a chore (they can often flee far enough to get backup) and fleeing nigh on impossible.

It would be cool to see Loyalty do something in the game!

 

[mexxico]

As suggestion of @MostBlunted I made another test with removing Khuzait's speed bonus and 20% strength bonus for mounted units at autocalculation and here is map situation after 9 years :

This shows remaining snowballing is caused because of these 2 bonuses. There remained nearly no snowballing after removing these 2 bonuses at 1.5.1 + hotfix adjustments. There is nothing I can do for these 2 bonuses. I will report this however as long as they stay at game its very hard to stop Khuzaits in long gameplays. In any case even in 10 years they can get 30% of map, better than older versions. Anyway this was final test from me for these issues. I think we collected all information and fixed problems mostly. To improve game we need to add rebellion feature and adjust faction bonuses.